On this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast, we're sitting down with doctor Sean Woodley to understand the skill of classroom management and how to put it into action. Come on. Let's learn together. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast.
Jordan:Will? This is Will here, guys.
Will:I'm excited to be in the part of another episode. Look forward to knowing you.
Jordan:Yeah. That was great. It seemed like you had a lot to say, but that's okay. Don't worry about it. We'll get to it.
Jordan:So, being a part of the podcast and our work with Innovative Schools Summit Mhmm. There's something that we hear a lot about that is our topic for today, which is classroom management. Do you feel like you hear like, you're at the summits, you're walking around, you do a great job with like greeting and talking to people. Mhmm. Is that a topic that you hear a lot about from some of the educators out there?
Will:I mean, yeah. I feel like that's a topic that yes, I feel like I hear about it at the summits often, but I also feel like we also get a lot of speakers that talk about this topic.
Jordan:Mhmm.
Will:Because I feel like it's something that is semi ever changing in terms of new ideas. Yeah. For it, you know, and I feel like there's people have kind of cracked the code in their own ways different things, but yeah, it's definitely something I we see and hear every summit.
Jordan:Yeah, someone's always kind of talking about it. I think it's valid like it's yeah Kids and people are always changing. There's always new things that are coming up and new things that are happening. And so it is I think you're right. It is an ever changing thing.
Jordan:And I personally think that there can never be too many tools in the teacher's toolbox. Yeah. When it comes to classroom management, but we're not exactly experts.
Will:Not experts at all.
Jordan:That's why we have this podcast where we get to bring experts on
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yeah.
Jordan:To help us learn and help our audience learn. Mhmm. So I'm not gonna pander anymore, and we're just gonna get into introducing Doctor. Sean Woodley is here to help us talk a little bit about classroom management. Sean, do you find the same kind of thing as you go around and you talk and you listen to teachers and and stuff about classroom management?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Most definitely. It is something that is a recurring theme in discussions, whether it is around instruction or whether it is around any other area of school, some way, somehow behavior makes its way into the conversation because it impacts and affects so many different things in the classroom.
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. That that that's right on what we hear. So doctor Sean, let's just back up just a second. Let's talk about you for a minute.
Jordan:So Mhmm. You you were an educator at one point in time. You're kind of more into the speaking realm. But what did you do when you were teaching?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sure. Sure. I taught for fifteen years. And so I taught at the k 12 level for ten years in title one schools. I taught in the Virginia area around where I went to college and then moved to Atlanta and taught in the Atlanta Metro Area before I started teaching at the university level.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And when I started teaching college, I taught classroom management and also, student engagement. And I purposefully, when I went from teaching at the K 12 level to teach at the university level, part of that transition also included me going back to school to get a terminal degree. And most often, people in education, they go the instruction instructional leadership route and I chose not to go that way. I did not want to become a school principal, no disrespect. That just wasn't my calling.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I wanted to learn more about how I could help the educators in the learning environment. And so I studied human performance improvement as it pertains to education, not instructional leadership.
Jordan:Yeah. So you you kinda hit the whole gambit of education there. Everything Mhmm. On the kind of the classroom side, not like you're saying, not the principal and stuff like that. That just wasn't something that you felt was, as you said, your calling, the thing that you wanted to go into.
Jordan:Which I think is great. I think, you know, having that awareness of, hey, you know, classroom, that's where that's where I'm at, and this is the path that I'm going is is fantastic. So we really did get the expert, Will.
Will:We really did. I mean,
Jordan:he teaches at the collegiate level. I mean, doctor Sean, classroom management, Woodley. Right? That's how we're
Will:I think that's name. Placard on his door,
Jordan:I think.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:But I love it.
Jordan:Okay. We'll get the next summit you're at, we'll we'll get a little something, a mug or something that has has that on it for you. But Yeah. Okay. So you you taught in classrooms.
Jordan:You've Mhmm. Taught classroom management at the collegiate level.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Mhmm.
Jordan:So here's a question for you.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sure.
Jordan:How do you define, I guess, classroom management? What does that encapsulate? Maybe people have their own kind of opinions of where it sits or different things. But for the sake of our conversation today, what do you kind of put under that umbrella of classroom management?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Traditionally, it is more of the technical aspect of your rules, routines, and procedures in the classroom. Of course, there's some nuance in there. I go a little bit further with how I interpret classroom management and with the programs that I've run with teachers to help them understand that you have to really be intentional about giving consideration to the human element of the learning environment and the laws that drive what people do and why they do it. And so there are essentially five, like, fundamental dimensions that are part of every single learning environment regardless of where, what, or how you teach. You have that human core of the students and the behavioral laws that drive their behavior.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:You have Yeah. That academic structure in the learning environment which is where your instructional activities or your systems come in place. The learning objectives, the signals about energy, the signals about feedback, how you're interpreting student emotions, how you're interpreting your own emotions, and then the circumstances, things that you cannot control. So essentially, understanding how those elements drive what is happening in a relatively unpredictable environment and navigating all of that successfully is really how I define classroom management.
Will:I think there's a lot of aspects to that that I wasn't totally aware of. But now that you're highlighting them in this way, I feel like I'm I'm thinking back to high school, and I can tell when maybe just my teacher would maybe go from showing something on the board and just maybe pausing and, you know what? Let's do this. Let's switch to this. Like, I could now see those moments of reading the energy Yes.
Will:And the different things like that. That's really cool. Yeah.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yes. That is something what I found and I know we'll probably get into this a little bit later, but that level of situational awareness and being able to tell in the moment when there's a pivot that needs to happen from an instructional standpoint or even a behavioral standpoint, that is a skill that can be developed for educators and it is something a lot of times that it's thought of as either you have it or you don't when it is something that can be cultivated with you if you do it intentionally.
Jordan:Yeah. For sure. We're definitely gonna get into that stuff Yeah. Later. So people just hang out, and and we're gonna we'll definitely get there.
Jordan:Sean, you go around speaking, doing PD and things for schools. You're in schools a lot. As we've established, you are the perfect person that we came to to talk about classroom management. When you walk into a classroom, or maybe even it's right when you walk into a school, what are the early signs that tell you whether that environment is working for or against students, kind of in that classroom management, lens?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sure. It's very easy to see literally just yesterday, I was working with a school and was doing some rounds of observations for some teachers that needed some support with classroom management. And a lot of times, you can go into a classroom especially if I come in there at the beginning and see the transition of how students actually enter the learning environment. And you can see where there is structure and expectations of what is supposed to happen and you can see when it is more so, we'll just see how things go. That sort of understanding of the systems that are there or not is a telltale sign as to what the class and what that part of learning is going to be like.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I'm interpreting not just the procedures and the systems there, but I'm also trying to interpret how the teacher is feeling in that moment. Are they running the classroom with a sense of confidence and assurance that I know what's going to happen because these things are in place? Or is it more of a responding to something after it always happens, leaving things in control of the students? If the thought process is not there about being proactive and having certain structures in place, it basically leaves it up to chance and you're flipping a coin as to whether or not this is going to go the way that it needs to go.
Jordan:So what I what I'm kinda hearing, I guess, the way that I interpret that and work that in is it's really it's between being proactive and reactive. Is that one of your kind of keys as to whether the the the teacher or if it's at the kind of more
Will:of the school level?
Jordan:I know it's classroom management, but I I think that some of that starts with the leadership of the school. But whether there is a energy of being proactive against what are things that could come up, what are things that we need to be aware of that might be on the horizon versus, hey, this happened now. We need to make the correction. Is that kind of one of those pieces that you're talking about?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:100%. And both are important. Don't get me wrong. Sure. I am not
Jordan:saying You can't it's predict everything. Favor.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Right.
Jordan:Yeah.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Correct.
Jordan:Yeah. You can't predict everything. The things that you can kinda see, you know, using that to inform what you need to do to create that good learning environment for the students.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That's it.
Jordan:Yeah. Cool. End of episode. No, I'm joking. But no, I think I I completely agree with that.
Jordan:And I think there's a lot of educators that probably see that too. I also just hear kind of that sense of intentionality that kind of goes with the proactive of why why are you doing what you're doing? Is it because it's the way it's always been, or is there some reason? Is that another kind of key to what you're saying when you observe a classroom?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sort of.
Jordan:Okay.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And the one side of it is you do have instances where this is how it was done, and this is how it's going to continue to get done. You also have the other side of that where how it is supposed to be done was never taught. Classroom management, believe it or not, is actually one of those topics when a teacher is learning to become an educator. More often than not, I believe less than 10 to 15% of teacher preparation programs actually have a dedicated course to classroom management. It's more now, but more often than not, it's a paper, it's an assignment, a few discussions, maybe throughout, But as far as a dedicated time to learn what it means to manage the learning environment, it's actually not really taught the way that you might think it should be, which puts a lot of teachers in positions where they might be coming into the classroom behind the eight ball.
Jordan:Is that how you felt when you started your education career? Did you come out of school and go into a classroom? Did you ever have a moment like that?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sort of. My journey into the learning environment was a little different because I came in, I started teaching right when think I turned 22 when I started teaching. And I was teaching at a middle school and I was very insecure and so I wore for the first two years, I thought I wore suits every day just so that Mhmm. I felt that I was presenting in a way that meant I'm here for business. I'm not here to be your friend.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And I also took into the classroom some of the narratives because of the school and the community that the school was in about those kids. I took that with me. And so while I didn't quite have the same struggles as some with no classroom management, I actually was on the other side of that spectrum with too much and it was too strict and too structured to the point where I was cold and disconnected and pretty much mean because I thought that's what those kids needed.
Jordan:That's interesting. I never I guess I'd I always think about classroom management addressing like I'm trying to think. I have have you ever seen the movie Sister Act two? Do you know that movie at all, Sean? When Sister Mary Clarence walks if you haven't seen it, go watch it.
Jordan:It's a great movie. Sister Mary Clarence walks into that classroom that first time, and Yeah. There's kids throwing balls at airplanes, and they're hitting on things, and just do whatever they want. My first image of, like, bad classroom management. Of like, that classroom that's just hectic.
Will:Yeah.
Jordan:But I never thought about what you just described of being just so strict. Like, you've kind of gone to the other end of the spectrum of there may be order. I don't know. I'm I'm hopefully, I'm in term I'm I picked up what you're saying correctly. There maybe there's order, maybe there wasn't.
Jordan:But you're just so strict that it's not it's potentially just as equally not a good learning environment as that hectic classroom. Is that kind of Accurate. Your experience?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:No. You are spot on. It's it's exactly the opposite end of that spectrum from no control to too much control to the point where I generate literally generated fear because I had a parent that had to call me and say that her daughter was scared in my classroom. Like that's the type of shit that I ran. And it is something that really bothers me because it is not a learning environment that I was proud of, but I thought that that's what I was supposed to do for for those kids in that title one school.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And Right. I did not create a space of comfort, did not create a space of joy. Learning is supposed to be a fun and engaging and learning experience for what it is that you are going to do in that learning environment and taking that with you and I just did not create that space at first until it was brought to my attention and then I realized I had to create a little more balance. I didn't swing on the other side, swing the pendulum all the way back. That's that's not what I wanted to do.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:But I had to learn to balance and then even to go further, I also had to learn that while I don't wanna be too far over here with no control, and I don't wanna be too far over here with too much control because of the dynamics of human nature, I had to learn how to swing back and forth when
Will:it was needed. Sure.
Jordan:Yeah. Mhmm. I think I I wanna take a minute to just talk about how what works in one classroom doesn't work in every classroom. There's probably some principles that that kinda can work across. But when it comes down to specific things, you have a unique set of kids every year that you taught.
Jordan:I mean, every teacher knows that. It's a unique set of kids. And so your classroom management needs to shift and evolve or change, be aware of the dynamics of that specific group of kids, whether that's year over year if you're more at that lower grade level. Or it could be hour by hour with your high schools that maybe you're changing classrooms every once in a while. Or if you're a resource teacher and you're just getting a new set of kids every hour to do art or library or something like that.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yep. Yep. And with for something like that, it's important to understand there are kind of levels to this. At the foundational level, as far as what drives behavior in general, it's actually quite universal. Where the variance comes is how those drivers can be expressed and what triggers specific things in those drivers.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:So for example, from a human behavior standpoint, what focuses a lot of attention is and and if you think in terms of social media, social media whether it is particularly short form social media is extremely powerful. And it's extremely powerful because these tech companies have invested a lot of money to figure out how we think and how we work and what is going to hold our attention. Because the longer we use TikTok or Instagram TikTok or Instagram Reels, the more money that they make. So they had a really, they were invested to try to see how they can maximize that. And what I've come to understand from a behavior standpoint is one of the things that drives what we focus on is a sense of novelty and a sense of relevance.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Meaning, human beings survived by understanding meaning in the context of cause and effect relationships, pattern recognition. And so, those things helped our ancestors, like, a really long time ago, be able to make sense of the world around them because if I saw clouds, then it might rain. Or if I heard this noise, then I might be in danger. Understanding those relationships helped you to survive. So for us now in the present, that is something you do not have to teach anyone to seek out those relationships.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:It is automatic. And when there are gaps in that information, that's the quintessential definition of curiosity. When you have novelty, something that breaks a pattern and something that you're not expecting, your attention is automatically drawn to it, hence, it's breaking a pattern. And so social media takes advantage of that with short form media because those videos are so quick, it is literally breaking a pattern for you every ten to fifteen seconds, sometimes even shorter than that and so it's a constant flow of novelty that your brain is just like, oh, this is cool. Oh, this is cool.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Oh, this is cool. And you just before you know it, three hours have gone by and you've sat there and done nothing but scroll.
Jordan:Yeah. So how Like, maybe two days ago. Since you went there, I have a question then. We're getting a little bit into the practical side here maybe. But can teachers, can educators, can a classroom use that to their advantage when it comes to classroom management?
Jordan:That same kind of human thing?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yep. Yep. The the same kind of behaviors that drive attention on social media are the same sort of behaviors that you can use when you understand what those drivers are in the learning environment and you can use it to your advantage. A workshop that I did not too long ago, I was trying to help. It was elementary school primary, more so like kindergarten, first grade.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And they were at this particular time having a difficult time helping their students with recognizing specific letters and more so recognizing those letters amongst other letters to form words. So for example, like, if I hold if I hold this pen this way. Right? This is a pen.
Jordan:He's holding it for those that are listening real quick, that are only listening. He's holding it horizontal. He's holding the pen horizontal. Okay.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:So if I hold this pen horizontally this way, it's a pen. If I change it and hold it horizontally this way and just flip it in one eighty, it's still a pen. If you take the letter b and hold it this way and then you flip that letter b horizontally, that's not a b anymore. So helping to differentiate that as far as what you recognize is one thing. Then in terms of that, you can take that same concept of recognizing that shape and the distinction of it and what the characteristics define it and you put that for a slide I had a different letter b, one was a font, one was a bold font, one was a bigger one, one and I had them look at an example of what I would show students, it was like six of them on the board and they were kinda just scattered.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And they were different sizes, different fonts. And I said to them, but there was one that was mixed up in there and it was a letter e. So I said to them, show this to the students and I said, ask them to tell you which one is different. And they're automatically going to point to that letter e amongst those other letters even though the other letters are different sizes and shapes, you will still they will still understand that there's a pattern in play here that all of those letter b's still go in the same direction regardless of size. That is tap and you don't have to teach someone to do that.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Because we innately recognize patterns and we can distinctly tell when there are common functions and and characteristics among you don't have to tell them, make sure you look for that, they'll automatically do it because of how the human brain works. And so then you would take something like that and up at a level, change the colors, add a few more, and then add some other elements that were now they're not just b's, there are a couple of d's in there and ask them to define which ones are different. Tapping into that same level of pattern recognition, but now increasing the challenge.
Jordan:Yeah. That's good. That you know, I might have to use that with my own kids. My daughter still has a problem with reversals a little bit.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:So That's free of charge. Oh, nope. Nope. Nope. That's on me.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Go for it.
Jordan:Thanks, doctor Sean. That's awesome. We would yep. That's awesome. Well, I you know, just kinda getting a little bit back not a little bit.
Jordan:Getting back kinda to the classroom management side of of things. Earlier, you said that typically, coming out of school, there's not a lot of classroom management taught. Why do you think that's not well, let me back up for a second. Do you think more should be taught? And why do you think more isn't taught?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Do I think more should be taught? Absolutely. And it's not I I don't want to this is not something to cast aspersions on teacher preparation programs or like, this is not to do that. Because what the teacher preparation programs are doing, they're following the mandates from the state who are following the mandates from the governing bodies, who are getting mandates from people that don't teach. So at the end of the day, it's really just about following the rules.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I'm more so trying to advocate for and make sure that there's an understanding happening that when teachers are coming into the classrooms, they're not being prepared the way that it feels that they should be. Because you ask a lot of teachers, especially when you come into the challenging circumstances of underserved, under resourced communities, they have extra challenges that they have to be aware of and it's not going to be something where is being able to have a lesson plan in important and critical? 1000%. Yeah. But a good lesson plan is not going to help when it comes to little Johnny keeps getting up and disrupting a learning environment.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:A lesson There are certain things that have to be in there and there are certain types of awareness, there are certain decision making skills that are absolutely essential especially when you teach in challenging circumstances that if it is not there, it's essentially, like I mentioned before, putting the teacher in a position where you just have to guess. Maybe they'll develop it, maybe they won't.
Jordan:Yeah. When the student is disengaged, when there's a distraction, like, I think kinda like what you're just saying, there's this pattern. It it it's built into us. There's a pattern of the the teacher teaching, we're following it. Someone does something over here, and it breaks that pattern.
Jordan:And all of our attention goes over to what's going on over there. And now, who knows how long, depending on who you are, how long it's gonna take you to get back into or how much work an educator's gonna have to do to get the classroom back, depending on what happens. I think that's I think that's just overlooked. Not maybe not overlooked, but, like, the the knitting of having your good lesson plan and knowing how to manage the classroom together. Like, you have to have both.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And how discouraging is that for you to put all that time into constructing a lesson? I cannot tell you how many times I saw a lesson going one way in my head. I'm putting it I'm putting literally time and energy and investment. Oh, when I do this, they're really gonna like and it goes nothing like I I see in my head.
Jordan:Yeah.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And now, I'm in a position where I'm mid instruction and I'm losing attention and I can see it happening but I don't know how to get it back on track and so now what that puts me in a position is is where I have to be the cognitive battery for those students by, hey, stay focused, pay attention, and now I'm doing that work that the instruction should actually do if it's designed to capture and hold attention.
Jordan:Right. Well, I'm gonna go and close the first part of our podcast here. We're going to take a short break. We've talked a lot. You got some free stuff there about social media and teaching.
Jordan:But also, I think so far, this has been a great conversation of just what classroom management is and what it's not, and kind of defining some of those things. After the break, we're going have Doctor. Sean with us still. And we're going to get into some practical things that educators can be doing, hopefully, right away, to help, manage that classroom, to help control, but also keep that not not be too strict and not be too loose, and just create that great learning environment. So hang out with us, and, we'll be back in a little bit.
Jordan:Hey, educators. Welcome back to the iterative schools podcast. We're here with doctor Sean Woodley and with Will talking about classroom management. We spent the first half talking about just what classroom management is, why it's beneficial, which you probably already know a little bit of that, listeners. But I always think it's good to define it so we're all on the same page together.
Jordan:Mhmm. Now what we're gonna do is we're gonna pick doctor Sean Woodley's brain on things that you can do to I I don't know the right way to say this, Sean, is increase your classroom management, manage your classroom management out of how how how for how would we say that? Sorry. Let's pause for a second and talk about that for a minute.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:It's it's more so I think of classroom management not just as a topic, but of a as a professional competency. And I like to call it, like, a a form of intelligence, like classroom management as a form of professional intelligence because there is so much more to it than rules, routines, and expectations.
Jordan:Sure. Mhmm. Yeah. I I like that intelligence. It makes me think that it's something that I can grow in.
Jordan:It's not I'm not just
Dr. Shaun Woodly:lost in the habit.
Jordan:That is exactly We're learning things together. Alright. Perfect. You didn't like that I called that out, did you?
Will:It's like it's our slogan
Jordan:or anything. That's okay. Alright. So you have four educator kinda capabilities to grow that intelligence.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yep.
Jordan:Let's walk through some of them. First one here I got on my notes is awareness. Can you kinda Mhmm. Define, like, how is that an educator capability? How does that relate to classroom management?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sure. It's it's a professional awareness, and it is about the ability to understand that your perception matters and understanding that you have to be able to literally be able to see what's going on. And that sounds simple, but when you really think about what that looks like, there's a lot to it. It's the situational awareness that you have. So if I am helping someone to be more cognizant of that level of professional awareness, it is a situational awareness, It is a temporal awareness, meaning like time.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Because over a while after a while, you start to understand that there are patterns and certain triggers that will happen and you recognizing those things is ridiculously important. How do you scan the learning environment to make sure that you're not fixating on just the troublemakers but ignoring what's happening over here? Are you positioning yourself where you can actually see what is happening and moving around so that you don't avoid or not avoid, but miss something that is happening that could have been seen with a a different positioning in a learning environment. Do you accurately, are you aware of and do you read what's happening in real time seeing that the students are becoming disengaged or seeing that if this student is next to that student, then there's a likelihood that something is gonna pop off. Like, let that level of awareness is ridiculously important, and it has to be a part of the learning environment, and it's something that can be developed.
Jordan:Okay. I'm I'm gonna unpack this just for a second because I I feel like I wanna bring some clarity here for a second, excuse me. So awareness, I feel like we said or you said you've been talking, not me is there's kind of a physical awareness of where you are in the classroom, how your classroom is set up to make it more advantageous for classroom management. I feel like I heard a little bit of situational are the students becoming disengaged? Am I focusing on one area of the classroom and not another area?
Jordan:There's kind of that thing. And then is maybe another area of awareness is just kind of the the students' energy or how they're like, them as individuals as well. Did I over complicate under simp or did I simplify too much? Or is that kinda it that's what it felt like to me. It's like all those things kinda wrapped up into this awareness.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:For the most part. It was like 90% there. So Ah, so close.
Jordan:That's still an a.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I'm okay. It's still
Jordan:an a.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:It's still an a. But I I to clarify, with regards to and this goes back to what you asked earlier, how am I defining classroom management? It's more so of dividing it into certain technical skills and non technical skills. And so the technical side of it is how do I craft a procedure? How am I establishing my rules in my learning environment?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:How am I designing this learning? Like that is a technical skill. When I talk about this level of professional awareness and the situational and temporal awareness that you need to have, that's a non technical skill and I'm talking about something that is a skill that basically the the best way that I can describe a non technical skill is something that it influences other areas and it's a little bit harder to observe, but it still has to be there. And so the positioning physically, yes, is important, but it's more so about what the physical position allows you to see and then that become that is the actual awareness. It's not the physical positioning itself.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Does that make sense?
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. So would that kinda be like or I guess maybe give an example of good physical positioning and awareness and and bad.
Will:Like, maybe not your back to the classroom the whole time.
Jordan:Like, not
Will:just facing your white board. Yep. You know, but you're actually moving around the classroom. Is that kind of what you're saying?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yes. And this is this is not something for example, a lot of a a good instructional practice is when you have the students that are engaged in small group activities. So let's just say I have my class divided and there are groups of four around the learning environment. And I have structured activities where they are supposed to be doing specific things. And this is an exaggeration but it can happen.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Me understanding that situational awareness and this professional awareness is important. I have to be able to then be able to see what is happening and so my positioning as far as being able to hear what is happening and be able to see what is happening is going to help to further my professional awareness in that stance as opposed to if I was just sitting at my desk and just Sure. Assuming that everything was going the way that it needs to be going. That's just Right. The positional the the physical positioning allows me to see some things better.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I'm also cognizant that that physical positioning will give me a better vantage point to be able to detect specific things from a prediction standpoint. I know that, alright, this subject has been rather challenging and so if I am not aware that there's a challenge there that might need some extra facilitation, that's easier for the students to get off task. So that type of awareness in being present and recognizing where something can go wrong is that type of nontechnical skill that I'm talking about.
Jordan:So the next educator capability we have here is decision making.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:The decision making is more so a result of I have this level of awareness. I see what is happening. I'm anticipating what is happening. Now, have choices. And that type of professional and strategic decision making is about what those choices are and which ones are more important to get and which ones are more important and more likely to get you the best results.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:In a given situation, you more likely than not have several options as to what you can do, but some of those options are going to get you better results than others and it's also a matter of understanding that not the same option is going to work every time. That's where things get complex and that's what I was talking about again as far as a non technical skill Because if I were to keep things procedural in that may term meaning, I see a student get get up out of their seat so that I automatically go to this series of consequences. Someone that is demonstrating that level of professional awareness and strategic decision making would ask themselves a couple of preliminary questions first to understand why this could be happening. And then to see, alright, of when I figure out why this is happening, what's going to be the best choice for me in that moment? Could it is this the first time or is the fifth time?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Because my response is going to be very different. Is this someone who normally does things like we have habitual line steppers in the classroom? Is this someone who habitually steps up to that line and likes to tap dance on that line and get all my nerves or is this someone who has just got up and it's rather unusual, oh, I see they're making their way to go sharpen their pencils so it doesn't require me to scream at them in front of everybody. I'm being dramatic here, but literally, it's that type of recognizing what is happening and exercising discernment amongst the options to understand what's going to get you the best results in a given moment.
Jordan:And I kinda hear, you know, we we talked about awareness is those decisions, we should make the best decision that we can. But then Mhmm. Using the awareness to even on ourselves to say, okay. That didn't return the result that I was looking for. Maybe I need to try a different a different path.
Jordan:And so having you can't just throw out that decision, go sit behind your desk, expect it to all work out. But having the awareness back to say, okay, that worked somewhat. Maybe not all the way. That definitely worked. That definitely didn't work.
Jordan:Any of that kind of stuff with the decisions on addressing kind of what's going on in the classroom.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That's it. That's it. Yeah.
Jordan:Cool. So the next one we have here is action. Mhmm.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:When it comes time to take action, that is more so about, okay, what is the actual behavior? I have the professional awareness and so this is my ability to actually see and discern what is happening. And the strategic decision making is giving me the choices. Alright. Here's what I can do.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Here are the options and some are going to give me better results than others. Then it's actually that ability. Now, when I talk about this action and how we respond in a given moment, what is important to understand there and it can be easily lost is there is a difference between knowing something and having the ability to do it under pressure. And this is where things kind of get it becomes easy for it to go wrong because now in a classroom in and of itself, it's a it's an environment of high levels of things that are that have variance And with that variance, you kind of it leaves certain levels of uncertainty. And so it is going to be very important, and I try to help the educators that I work with to understand that how you respond to something is going to be different when you're sitting and planning how your your classroom management plan, you writing that down, how you can respond to something is not the same as how you're actually going to respond in that moment when there's pressure.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And so it is about understanding that that pressure will be there and recognizing from a self regulation standpoint how you need to think and what it is that you need to do to think clearly in situations of high variance and pressure.
Will:I've I kinda just had this mental, I guess, image of a a teacher anticipating something coming and just writing, you know, I I I know he's gonna have an outburst. So I'm gonna say, Jeremy, I see you and I hear you and we're gonna move on. And then in the moment, like, Jeremy, I see you and I
Jordan:hear you. Okay? And then, you know,
Will:just because you're writing, it doesn't mean it's gonna be like that, you know. Yeah.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That is exactly that's a great example. And the biggest thing that you did there was you technically followed the plan. You said the same words. It is how it is delivered. And that is the action that I'm talking about.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That makes all the difference. I'm a go back to what I mentioned earlier about from a human behavior standpoint. Everyone is familiar with that concept of it's not what you say, but how you say it and how how there are significant portions of all communication that is actually not just the words but it's the tone and the body language and the voice inflection. And you do not have to teach anyone to interpret that. If you say that with that tone of frustration, that means something totally different than if you say it with Jeremy.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Alright. I see you. I recognize you. Have a seat and we'll get those are two different things. And that the way that you execute something under pressure has to be considered and it takes some practice, but it takes that level of awareness and the decision making to even get to that point in the first place.
Jordan:Yeah. Do you have any tips on how educators can kinda close that gap between this is what I can say, you know, when maybe you're sitting there and you're writing the thing out or you're thinking about the situation. How did how does someone kinda close that gap between
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Mhmm.
Jordan:If everything goes right, this is what I can say, and the heightened emotion, you know, just I am on edge actual response.
Will:Like someone gave Jeremy a Red Bull today.
Jordan:How do I do that? Well, seeing more of on the teacher. Right?
Will:Yeah.
Jordan:Because you can you can have it all planned. But if a kid looks you in the face and I'm sorry, listeners tells you to f off. Like Yeah. Mhmm. You immediately Absolutely.
Jordan:Start and and things start coming to your emotions and, you know, all that chemicals and everything that goes on in your brain. Mhmm. So it in the same way, I feel like, you know, we can sit here and say, you need to be aware and you know, for that kind of things, and we it's easy for us to talk about it right now. Do you have any kind of tips for what educators can actually do to to kind of close that gap, to regulate a little bit for when to take action in the appropriate way?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Yes. Yes. Part of that idea of the professional awareness is not just being aware of what is happening inside the classroom, but being aware of what is happening with you. And in those moments, if I see that a student has upset me or has annoyed me or frustrated me. It could be something that they've done.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:It could be something that just is something that they normally do, but it's the straw that broke the camel's back. Me being able to recognize that moment of frustration for me and having awareness to see that happening in real time cannot be understated. It it is so important. And then I have to now go into I still have some decisions I have to make, but then I'm also trying to manage a relationship there. I'm also trying to understand how I communicate and how that can be perceived like there are a lot of different thoughts happening at the same time.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I'll I'll say it like this. One of the analogies that I kind of think of is that I think a lot of people can recognize and relate to is the skill of learning how to drive. If I'm learning how to drive, there are specific rules, there are specific laws, laws of physics and actual laws like civil laws that you have to obey and follow or else there are consequences. Everyone when they first step into that car for the first time, first couple of weeks, first couple of months learning how to drive, you are very very aware of every single thing that you do. You put that seat belt on and you adjust your mirrors and you you and you ten and two and you're driving and you're making sure that you're paying attention to things, are hyper aware of every single thing until there's a certain level of familiarity and comfort that happens and it you establish a pattern.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:The brain works in patterns and so once you've done something enough the correct way, you start to build that form of a habit to where you don't need to actually give it so much energy and thought. And managing the learning environment is the same thing. You will start It can seem overwhelming to have to pay attention to so many different things, the different students that have their different needs and it can be a lot to take in while you are trying to teach the Pythagorean theorem. But over time, you will develop that skill and ability to see what is happening and that's why you can go in one classroom and see things that are absolutely chaotic and those same exact students will go next door and it seems like there's a teacher that is literally running a lesson while juggling and everything is just flowing smoothly. It's because Mhmm.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Those skills and that level of competence in those areas with how to manage those things while it seems innate because it worked its way up to that. It started from a place where I'm buckling my seat belt and adjusting my mirrors to kinda bring it back to that analogy.
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. No. That's good. That's good.
Jordan:I I do think about I remember when I first started driving, I was looking at the speedometer all the time. Like, always very cautious and conscious of how fast I was going. And now, it's just it's like, I kinda know how fast I'm going. And you kinda get that that rhythm. And I see how that works in with classroom management
Dr. Shaun Woodly:of Yep.
Jordan:As you do it, the more you do it. It just is things. I also think about I was really things back to sports. I think about any professional athlete on some level. I think about those sideline catches in football where they're just inbounds.
Jordan:Instinctively. They have Mhmm. They just know they know it so well. They know their body and the field. They're not looking down to see where the out of bounds is.
Jordan:They they just have that awareness. They just know where they are because they've had the repetition over and over and over again. They've studied the playing field, and they know where they are. That's that's what I think.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Toe drag comes in. Yep. Mhmm.
Jordan:They're not thinking about that toe drag. They're just doing it. It's just hard.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That's it.
Jordan:So you got a car analogy. You got sports analogy.
Will:We're hitting all of
Jordan:all of the pieces of it. So that's great. Either one of those works for you, you get it.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:I can even bring it to cooking. Mean, how many times have you tried to I am a self proclaimed grill master and there have been some instances where I try to follow a new recipe and I measure and I will pour and get measuring cups and things of that nature but then it's like, okay, I start to see the formula and now I'm gonna add my own little razzle dazzle to it and I'm eyeballing these things and now I know that if I have this on the grill, I just instinctively know it's about time to flip and then I know after that from instinct, from having done it so many times what it takes for it to be at the perfect temperature, at the perfect level of crispiness, like, now I'm hungry. So it's just it's Yeah.
Jordan:Yeah. It's really what we're wrap this up so
Dr. Shaun Woodly:we can
Jordan:go get something to eat. But I
Will:honestly like that analogy more because I I feel like we we were saying with, like, the car, like, it's still the same setup. You know, we're not we're not getting any taller. So, you know, I don't need to slide my seat back anymore, you know, and everything is set. But I like cooking more because you could be grilling different meats, using different seasonings, doing a different recipe. But because you've done it so often, you still know exactly what you need to add more and less of Mhmm.
Will:Kanaki. So I like that even more actually.
Jordan:Look at you. Look. We hit everyone everyone walked away with the the one that works for them. That's good.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That's it.
Jordan:We really made sure that we hit all the learning styles and make sure everyone But we got before we get out of here and go eat something now that we've been talking about cooking, last one of here of the educator capabilities is presence.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:The presence is more so about what sort of a state, what sort of established presence do I have in the learning environment from an authority standpoint. How am I able to convey that while all of this is happening, I am in control? And this is one of those things where going back to what it was that I mentioned in the beginning of the classroom, I overcompensated for. I kind of instinct to instinctively knew that having a professional presence in the classroom was important, but the definition that I had was wrong. You can have that type of professional presence in the learning environment and be confident and be authoritative but also still be open to being a human and understanding that you are working with kids that need a certain level of love, a certain level of care while a certain level of management and discipline is important.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:It's about a balance and that presence was what I talked about before about not necessarily having that pendulum swing all the way one way versus another. That that pendulum, it's going to not sit in the middle but that pendulum is gonna swing. It's gonna swing sometimes. I need to be a little more lenient, but that my my professional awareness is going to also show me that sometimes I need to, alright, hold on. Sit sit down.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Like, I I need to bring that back a little bit And that presence allows me it gives me the permission and the confidence to know that I can do both and I'm going to get the results that I wanted without compromising the relationship or without compromising the learning environment.
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely that. Just knowing that. Because we we had talked about a little bit of just the two ends and it may shift a little bit of from class to class.
Jordan:Class to class to class. Or even just day to day.
Will:Hour to hour.
Jordan:Yeah. Just what's going on of we still need order, and we still need to get learning done. But we also can't like you're saying from your experiences, we we can't just be so rigid and stiff that, I think you said earlier that, you know, kids, they weren't learning because there was a bit of fear of what was going on in your classroom. And so having that that presence of what's going on and knowing when to be a little bit more stiff and when to be a little a little looser, picking your battles, I guess, is a a way to to put that maybe with the different behaviors and things.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:And what's also important about that presence is it provides from a psychological safety standpoint, it provides a source of reliability from the student's standpoint as far as their nervous systems. Because from a human behavior standpoint, one of the things that can trigger fight, flight or freeze is something that is unpredictable in a negative way. And if my presence in the classroom signals uncertainty, signals that I do not have control over the learning environment, what that communicates to those students nervous systems is that the teacher that's supposed to be in control is not. And therefore, something could happen and I won't be protected. Like, it's literally
Jordan:Yeah.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That message that is being sent even though it's not being said. And so Yeah. Having that level of presence in the learning environment is not just about being a dictator. It's not just about making a learning environment fun. It's about creating a source and a sense of psychological safety so that now those students when they do that's not gonna make them behave perfectly.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:But when they do, they'll trust your ability and your groundedness and your presence to as a form of authority to know that you are coming from the right place because you have control of the learning environment as opposed to someone who may not have control and in a sense and right, wrong or indifference, this is just what happens. It's almost like they have not earned that right to tell me what to do because you don't even have control over this learning environment. So how are you gonna tell me? Like, that's not what should happen. Let me be very clear.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:That's not what should teach students should follow the instructions simply because of that teacher and their role in the classroom but they do not. And unfortunately, I've seen it time after time where teachers with the best of intentions, they want to be there, they want what's best for their students, but if it is not perceived that they have that professional presence and that certain level of authority, it's more so up to the students as to the temperature of the classroom as opposed to the teacher And that's unfortunate, and that's what I believe contributes significantly to a lot of the struggles that some of the teachers have because they're not taught how to do that.
Jordan:Doctor Sean, thank you so much. You I don't think I could say anything else right now that outside of what you just said. I mean, that just kinda sums it up. And I I hope that there's something in here to kinda go over them again. So we have these educator capabilities that work together to create an effective Yep.
Jordan:You know, classroom and classroom management. Awareness, decision making, action, and presence. Mhmm. Assume there's not really one that's more important than the other, but they work together. I think we've been a done a good job of establishing that that having the awareness informs your decision making and your action and your presence.
Jordan:Your presence helps you with your awareness. Your like, they all work together. And so just thank you for spending this time with us
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Of course.
Jordan:As we explore this subject and we get some information out there. To to educators about classroom management, thank you for sharing your passion of why you think it's important, and, you doing the work of going around and, teaching on this, which, we didn't really talk about this beforehand. But if someone wanted to get in touch with you on, possibly bringing you to their school to talk a little bit more about this or do some training, what would they do for that?
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Sure. I could be reached directly at my website, which is teachhustleinspire.com. I'm pretty much on all forms of social media at teachhustleinspire or I think Twitter or X or whatever you wanna call it now.
Jordan:Yeah. It's
Dr. Shaun Woodly:too long. I just use my name. It's Sean Woodley. And I am happy to support in any way that I can.
Jordan:Awesome. Perfect. We'll put links for all of that down in the description. We've known you for a while. We're really thankful that, we kinda have a bit of a relationship with you, and we could do this with you.
Jordan:I wanna thank everyone for listening to this episode. I know that you learned something. We're all here to learn together. I wanna encourage you to if maybe you have a a friend down the hall, a teacher just down the hall who's struggling a little bit with classroom management, I hope that you provide this resource to them, not so that we can become more well known, but to help them educate the students in their classroom. That's why we do this podcast is simply just to provide more tools for educators to teach students.
Jordan:We've said it a bunch on this podcast. We think this is an admirable job. We think this is an honorable job. We also know that it's a hard job, we're just trying to create more tools for it. So, like, follow, subscribe, all those things.
Jordan:You know it. Thank you again, doctor Sean Woodley. Thank you all for joining us.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Of
Jordan:course. And, we'll see everybody on the next episode.
Dr. Shaun Woodly:Thank you, guys. I appreciate you. Thank you for having me.