On this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast, we're talking with responsibility centered discipline creator, Larry Thompson, and how we can move responsibility for actions to the student and build that muscle of self control. Come on. Let's learn together. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast.
Jordan Bassett:My name is Jordan, the host of this episode. I am here joined with RCD, master trainer and founder? Is that the right word?
Larry Thompson:Creator. Creator. Something like that.
Jordan Bassett:Larry Thompson. Hey, Larry. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today.
Larry Thompson:Thanks for having me. Look forward to it.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. I I am too. This is a this is a conversation that I've been really looking forward to. We have I've known you for a long time, for ten plus years probably, somewhere around there. We've done a lot of things together.
Jordan Bassett:And I see a lot of value in what RCD does and brings to to schools and to districts and how it helps students. But many of our listeners may have never heard of RCD. I guess I should stop saying RCD and start saying responsibility centered discipline. I apologize for that. I'm just it's so much just part of, like, working with you that Right.
Jordan Bassett:That I used to say that. Easier to get out of
Larry Thompson:your mouth. It is
Jordan Bassett:a little bit. It's a little bit. But, Larry, can you explain what responsibility center discipline is?
Larry Thompson:Yes, as quickly as I can. In my journey in education, we worked with, or I began to work with kids that really struggled to do well in school. Their behaviors were often in their way, walking out of class, not doing their work, arguing with their teacher, just you name it. And I guess I had tried the traditional approaches that everybody did in every school of giving them consequences and then they didn't seem to care about the consequence. And you really find out pretty quick that you don't have very many consequences.
Larry Thompson:I mean, ask a teacher, what is the options for consequences? And it's a short list. The biggest one is don't come back to school anymore. So here you go, that's all we got. So that hit me.
Larry Thompson:And then I began to look at our kids have real skill deficits. Like part of the reason they get in trouble is they don't know like how to say, I don't want to do that in a somewhat respectful way. Like, could I do it tomorrow? I don't, I'm tired, but they have to use a whole bunch of profanity and throw it on the floor.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:So I started to look at what if our focus was strengthening the kid so they can do something when they leave us? I dealt with a lot of kids in foster care in my school. High number of kids were in foster care. And so trying to get them to go home, my journey started to be, we can't just have them do well in this classroom seven. We got to get them to be able to go home.
Larry Thompson:If a conflict happened with their mom or their new foster home, like if they do that in their new foster home, they're going be right back.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:So I think the journey was like always shifting it to the kids. So our CD, when we say responsibility centered, the whole focus was building that responsibility internally into the kid. And then as my journey, when I began to study and learn more and dive into and explore and really found out that self control is kind of like a muscle.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:And you can strengthen that in a person. So what our kids really lacked was a lot of self control, whether that meant getting themselves to do work, be respectful to your teacher, even if you're frustrated with them. And then our teachers had to begin to be able to model and know how to strengthen that in the kids. So responsibility center discipline always moved away from traditional discipline that we're going to bribe you or scare you.
Jordan Bassett:Or sit out the clock
Larry Thompson:and sit over here and let us have peace.
Jordan Bassett:Office or whatever.
Larry Thompson:Yeah, why don't you go down there for three days so I can teach my class, you know? And I used to challenge my teachers with things like this when they would get frustrated, like, and as we were trying to figure it out together, you know, they would get frustrated about it. I said, what if your job, I said, this is hypothetical, but what if your job this year was this kid has to be able to regulate themselves and make And if they can't do that at the end of the year, we're going have to let you go. What would you try first? I really wanted them to get deeper than like, it's just about today.
Larry Thompson:They're like, well, I guess we tried consequence. That do it. Well, maybe we could find an incentive, and then we would find out they just manipulate the incentives. You know? So we went through that journey as a staff.
Jordan Bassett:You're telling a story about your daughter manipulating incentives of, you know, like, just working the system to get up to get the prize and then acting poorly to then work back up?
Larry Thompson:Exactly. I think every teacher kinda in their gut knows I don't wanna use these incentives.
Jordan Bassett:Mhmm.
Larry Thompson:But we're just wanting something. So we go, well, Jordan learning his math today is worth the candy bar. Yeah. I got something out of him. And the learning's important.
Larry Thompson:But we started looking at it different. The real goal for the day isn't actually the math assignment. It's Jordan being able to fight the resistance to do the easy thing Mhmm. And do the lifting of the weight Yeah. With a little help.
Larry Thompson:So he's stronger to face the next harder one as the year goes. And and we know, and the research is really overwhelmingly strong, that external reward reward slow down internal growth. So the more I'm going to have to get you to do them out of this, the more you're going to require bigger prizes and better stuff. If you doubt it, you know,
Jordan Bassett:Dopamine doesn't hit like it used to.
Larry Thompson:I used to just laugh. And when I had to, we had to learn that in my schools too. And I would watch my teachers be like, we need new stuff in the point store. The kids aren't gonna do it today. You know?
Larry Thompson:So now they can The rulers aren't cutting. I've had that already. That's when are you going to get good stuff in there? Then as you get older, how expensive are the prizes going to be? A high school kid, piece of tires on my car.
Larry Thompson:I might do my assignment today, but other than that, I'm out. So I think those, the journey of RCD as it evolved and as we learned more, we kind of found that place where we could have a lot to do with strengthening the student. And so as we watched kids gain those strengths, well, of course their academics came up. Yeah. Of course the peace in the classroom went down when they could call the teacher to the side and say, I don't feel like you're being fair to me.
Larry Thompson:Instead of F, slam the door, like that whole bit of their self control, their ability to do the hard. And so when that started to happen, people were coming to this really rough alternative school where other districts are coming and watching our kids that they had kicked out. And they're thinking, How are these kids doing so good? And so that's kind of what happened with RCD. So then it was like, Is this replicable or is this just something these people in that school are like magic?
Larry Thompson:Well, it wasn't magic. We had learned kind of a process to strengthen the kids, so then it got to be replicated all throughout the country now.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. Yeah. And you so you you use this analogy of self control being a muscle and, like, teachers, educators spotting, like, with weightlifting. If you never lifted weights, maybe this doesn't quite hit as hard. But, you know, you can imagine someone trying to to lift a certain amount of weight, and it's maybe at the extent of their strength at that time.
Jordan Bassett:And you need a spotter or someone to make sure that they stay safe to either lift a little bit so that they don't get hurt. And you use this analogy of spotting. Sometimes teachers are even pushing down on that weight, which isn't fair. You know, we get as educators, we get frustrated with a kid or annoyed, but we may not always see that we are actually making it harder for them to succeed. And that's part of RCD too.
Larry Thompson:Right? Yeah. I think that I'm really grateful that analogy came to me when I when I first began to study it and find that a lot of experts think self control is so similar to a muscle that it needs repetitions.
Jordan Bassett:Well,
Larry Thompson:that kind of ignited my brain being a former athlete doing a lot of weightlifting and going, Yeah, so when you are a trained spotter, you kind of get the feel of how much you should lift. And honestly, if you were bench pressing or lifting and I'm a good spotter, you're kind of going, Larry, are you even helping me? Like, I'm shaking and and nothing's happening. Yeah. But I'm only supposed to do the minimal amount you need to get it to the bar.
Larry Thompson:And so I think some of our teachers, because they love children. Their hearts are big and you know this kid comes from something really hard and you don't want to watch them struggle with it. So you kind of just come in and go, Hey.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, you lift it for the
Larry Thompson:next The paper's done. It's finished. And I used to kind of tease my high school teachers. Have you ever watched a kid walk across stage for graduation and think I really should get another diploma? I did most of that work.
Larry Thompson:You know, like and therefore, the child's not walking across going, look what I did. Yeah. And we talk a lot about, you know, the autonomy and mastery and the purpose part of our brain, which that autonomy says, let me not be controlled by you, let me do it. But the mastery part is where we feel like we did something that took skill or took learning. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:Persevering. Mhmm. And so if they're walking across the stage without the feeling of, I did it. And I think we even I'm old enough in education, over thirty thirty five years in and out. I've watched the things we tried, like tell kids they're great, give them give them all the award Mhmm.
Larry Thompson:And their self esteem will go up. But then we began to learn it will only go up when they feel the mastery. Yeah. Not me telling them.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. They need they need that confidence in that they completed it.
Larry Thompson:So when you overspot, you do get a result of the bar is lifted or the paper's complete, but you don't get the mastery. And if you really want a school full of children that push hard, they have to have experienced mastery, which means the first times it's going to be brutal because they're used to people doing it for them. They're going to lay on the floor. They're going to walk out of the building. They're going to do every defiant thing because they don't wanna lift that weight.
Larry Thompson:And if somebody's lifted it for them before Mhmm. You're up for a battle the first few times. But once they have a mastery moment, something changes. They're like, they walk different. We've teachers have all watched kids as they're growing, just like they're a different kid.
Larry Thompson:They walk with their head up. They say good morning as they walk by. They stop and talk to you in the hallway, the same kid that used to just, barrel down the hallway ignore you, they feel good with themselves. So we've got to see that transition. And so that's the whole responsibility centered thing is what is the art and the science behind getting that muscle to strengthen in children?
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. And those mastery moments are I I think they're they're pivotal. Like, I see them in my kids, my four year old and seven year old. Right? They may draw something, and I have no idea what it looks like, but they are super proud of it.
Jordan Bassett:But even like, if you're I feel like if you're listening and you're kinda struggling understanding mastery moments, like, have these too. You I think of I was reading a book a while ago about, part of it was about Home Depot and what they're actually selling. And people may say, well, they sell hammers and lumber and all sorts of stuff. But Home Depot actually looks at this whole thing of they're actually selling that moment of completing a project. That's what they're trying
Larry Thompson:to sell. Interesting.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. And so all of their ads and everything revolve around doing that because they even see the power in grown ups, adults completing something, feeling proud and wanting to share what they did.
Larry Thompson:I think anybody, you know, now you see it everywhere once you have your personal ahas in something, but I think anybody that's been really successful at any business or anything has somehow, whether they're consciously aware of it or not, they have their people that work for them have mastery moments. They know that that's where that person in that state of their brain is not struggling to get to work today. And I think it's important that what if we think differently as school leaders, and we think of what if a teacher could have a mastery moment by coaching a difficult behavior? Because I've trained you so well, and you step in and help a kid through what used to cause you tremendous stress and go home not wanting to come tomorrow. And now you're like, I did really good with him, didn't I?
Larry Thompson:Yeah. And that's what I wanted to build in my school. So now the teacher's stress is not based on how the kid does, it's based on how they do. So now you're watching teachers like, we got really tough kids here, but I'm really good at it. You know, like where I had to ask her to leave, but you know, I coached her really well, so I'm sure we can get things back on track tomorrow.
Larry Thompson:Whole thing works for all of us. You know, those mastery moments and those, I guess I've been a believer that your self esteem is rooted in your mastery moments. Mhmm. How many have you had? Yeah.
Larry Thompson:You know, if a kid in our tough schools hasn't had very many yet, so they just are angry and don't think they can do it, and and your kids that have had a lot of them feel confident.
Jordan Bassett:Mhmm.
Larry Thompson:So how do we get the little thing at school to be a mastery moment instead of go to this room? You're in trouble. Like, what if even going to that room could turn into a mastery moment? Like, you're here now, Jordan, but you're a smart kid, and I believe you can think of some way to navigate this different. So when you wanna say, F this and walk out, all you gotta do is think of one thing your brain could do to steer it towards a respectful way to tell your teacher you can't right now.
Larry Thompson:You wanna be left alone. Let's start there. That might he may pout for a day. Yeah. But when he goes back and it works Right.
Larry Thompson:Now, we stayed in class today.
Jordan Bassett:Right. I've come up with a solution to help fix this problem, not someone else hasn't. And Yeah. That's really powerful.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. I don't like to make everything oversimplified, but I often tell teachers, like, what makes this child feel strong in your classroom or at school? If they feel strong when they don't do what you ask, like I say, everybody walk and they walk real fast or run. Or I say, you know, Don't talk while I'm teaching, and they whisper to their friend, then they feel strong opposing the authority, which is most of our tough kids. What we've got to do is switch it to where they feel strong when they meet the goal.
Larry Thompson:And teachers have a lot to do with how they set that brain up for the moment. Yeah. So like a kid walking down the hallway, I'm doing really good today, aren't I? Versus, She can't make me walk. I mean, it's it's and you set that up.
Larry Thompson:And so we we get to help teachers learn how to set that up of which part of the brain do you wanna compete against because the the second one's gonna be brutal.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. So we kinda I mean, that was a a little more in-depth of what RCD is, but I think it's all very valuable information. You were saying something to me earlier that I wanna dig into, especially in light of everything we just said about RCD. You were talking to me about how you felt that, I guess, educators have more training on pedagogy and how to teach, and even RCD somewhat fits in Yeah. To that that thought.
Jordan Bassett:But at the same time, there's still a lot of struggles. You've you said it much better than I did or I am right now, but you kind of pose this this this question of why are we still seeing some test scores or things, or people overwhelmed, but we have so much more support now, I guess, is what you were saying.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. I mean, getting to travel the country and see schools in every state and talk to teachers and kinda get a pulse on the nation's feel of education. We and again, I've been in it a lot of years. We have provided more training to teachers than at any time. I mean, teachers from school.
Jordan Bassett:We meaning not RCD. No, meaning
Larry Thompson:the school systems.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, just to clarify.
Larry Thompson:Yeah, not me. School systems. So teachers, I mean, if we ask teachers in a room, tell us the trainings you've had in the last five years. And I'm not knocking the trainings. I think they've all been valid, most all valid and good.
Larry Thompson:But it's things on understanding trauma. It's things on the social emotional well-being of children. It's things on instructional strategies. It's differentiated learning. It's graphic organizers.
Larry Thompson:Now we're gonna weave technology into it. Now we're gonna do problem based. We could just keep going. Yeah. And so our teachers have more training and more skills Yeah.
Larry Thompson:Than probably teachers of the past ever even heard of.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, and just even avenues, like even this podcast, what we're doing right now. Like, you can just listen on the way to work or whatever, like, there's a lot.
Larry Thompson:So if our end result, the goal that we have for students is being able to pull jobs and do well in society and academically perform. And right now, we're measured on academic standards.
Jordan Bassett:Right.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. Why are they lower than ever if we're more trained than ever? And I'd just like to throw out the idea, what if we've come at it wrong? What if we have not been focused on strengthening the student? Because see, the teaching of the past was getting us higher test scores.
Larry Thompson:I'm not saying it was perfect, but I'm thinking, what if the reason teachers are burning out, which is in the book I just did, Responsibility Center Discipline, we pulled that research and we found that the number one reason teachers want to get out of education is school behaviors, what they're seeing from kids. The second one was you keep giving me more to do and I can't keep up. And so now I gotta go through three more trainings this year. And then you're starting to say, I did three trainings last year that didn't help. It's these kids.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:So we're going to train you more and more and the kid's going to sit there and not do their work. I've always just said, I think we've come at it wrong. I think the focus all along should have been on strengthening the kid. And so I went through these journeys. We're going to get a new curriculum, textbook adoptions.
Larry Thompson:I mean, these are brutal things for teachers to have to go through. And we're going to do all this, and then Michael's still going to sit there with his head down next year. Yeah. Like when did we forget that we have to make it about the kid? Yeah.
Larry Thompson:So I think that was like kind of the joy that I found in RCD. I felt like we quit shuffling teachers through more training and we went to the root of the problem, which is we have to strengthen these kids. So it doesn't matter how good your lesson is. At some point, the work picks up. You can only be entertaining so long, no matter how good you You can
Jordan Bassett:do the homework for them. You can't do the test. So when
Larry Thompson:the hard part comes, that's where our kids that don't have very much strength go, Oh, my head goes down. Can I go get a drink? Yeah. I'm going to find every way to not do. Every kid in The United States should graduate high school if they want to.
Jordan Bassett:But
Larry Thompson:see, we even add that if they want to.
Jordan Bassett:Want to, yeah.
Larry Thompson:See, I don't wanna go to work. I mean, I do most days, but I'm saying there's days you're like that flights all the way to LA and oh my gosh, I'm going to be so tired.
Jordan Bassett:Or I have to teach that class today.
Larry Thompson:But if it doesn't have any effectiveness. So the last part when we teach in schools is autonomy, mastery and then purposes that part where I feel like I make a difference. So I think what's happened in schools is we put all this on the teachers that they got to learn, and then the kids will do it. If you're better, they'll do it. So it's all about engagement.
Larry Thompson:So who does that blame? It's on the teacher. Okay, you gotta incorporate technology on the teacher. You gotta understand trauma. So it's telling the teacher and their subconscious, once you're better, Michael will raise his head up and work.
Larry Thompson:And I think we've missed it. I think I want you to be better, and I want you to keep going through those trainings and learn all of the things you can learn. But what if none of that's gonna raise Michael's head up until you start to know how to strengthen the muscle of self control in Michael? Yeah. And so I almost feel like we've put teachers in an impossible situation.
Larry Thompson:So after they get all that training and it doesn't work, then that purpose part in the brain is depleted, and you're like, why even try? So now why would I put all that work into a lesson when most of them are gonna talk? Some of them are gonna be on their phone. So now you've got a very defeated teachings.
Jordan Bassett:The teachers defeated the the students don't wanna do anything. It's just a whole bad situation.
Larry Thompson:And so the mistake too I hear us making is we have to motivate them. So this kid's not motivated, but in my world, it's always been motivation is just a measurement of your self control. So we think that guy out running out there at six in the morning is loving it. A lot of runners hate it. Just can get themselves to do I mean, don't love the workouts anymore either, but you do it and then afterwards you have a little mastery like, got that done.
Larry Thompson:Did that. The rest of the day, I feel like I accomplished something. And so I think that just not motivated is just seeing it different, like this kid's self control feels weak today. Therefore, I gotta get in and spot it. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:Until they can do the assignment without me coming over to the desk.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. That's there's a lot to think about there. We're gonna take a quick break. And when we come back, we're gonna continue the conversation with Larry and hopefully provide some some things that teachers can do. It seems weird to talk about, hey.
Jordan Bassett:We just had this conversation about maybe not maybe, but there's a lot coming at them. But give a little bit more to help shift that from
Larry Thompson:Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:A teacher to the student. So listeners, hang out, for a minute, and we'll be back after the break. Welcome back, everyone, to the Innovative Schools podcast. We've been talking with, Larry Thompson of responsibility centered discipline. If you forgot kinda where we left the conversation, we kinda talked about responsibility centered discipline.
Jordan Bassett:It takes a lot for me to not just say RCD. We talked about that. We've talked about mastery moments and lifting. So, you know, if you're just jumping in right now, it sounds like we just went all over the place. And one of the last things that we kinda talked about was the the amount of training that teachers get today, but your feelings on and I agree that the student has to have responsibility for their actions.
Jordan Bassett:But as educators, sometimes we put a lot of it on us. We change the curriculum or rewards or we try and do all the stuff for them, and we kind of threw that idea out there. I wanna talk now about some of the ways you solutions to help, you know, move the weight from the educator to the student. How can we grow those muscles of self control in students for them to take ownership of learning of what they need to do to be successful in the class, but then also successful out in the world and whatever they're doing?
Larry Thompson:Yeah. I think one easy thing, schools, I say easy, easy in theory, hard in application, but is move away from rules. Because that autonomy part of the brain, it fights back when it feels it's being controlled. But I tell audiences often, 50% of people in a room that I'm teaching, if I start the morning with, My name's Larry Thompson, I have some rules when I speak, a whole lot of body language needs Check
Jordan Bassett:out immediately. He's the same Yes. They pull their phone out.
Larry Thompson:You could just imagine that. But I joke that we teach America's Teachers coming out of college to start your lessons with going through the rules for the first three days of school. Yeah. So you've got 50% of the kids feeling strong. She can't make us do that.
Larry Thompson:And so a subtlety, it sounds simple, but it is a big concept and a big thing that will help a teacher is make what you're doing a skill, not a rule.
Jordan Bassett:So I'll
Larry Thompson:give you an example. Like, class, I'm going to hand out the assignment. And it's going to be a little bit hard. It's based on the last four days of learning. And so because it's hard, your temptation to take the easy road will pop up in your mind.
Larry Thompson:When you've got to push hard and go, This is going to be hard, and keep finding the answer, some of you will be tempted to get a drink or to need to use the restroom or to look at your neighbors. I'm going to ask you this time to work on our perseverance, to try to push for a good fifteen minutes, so older kids, good fifteen minutes, and see how we do. But if you're absolutely at a place like, I can't push anymore, I don't know, then signal me, I'll come give you a little boost and we'll get it done together. Versus, I'm going to hand out the assignment and you're not going to get drinks and you don't need to be looking at other people's work. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:And game on, you know? Oh, I buy pencil. You know? Oh, my Yeah. I'm digging in my backpack now for five minutes.
Larry Thompson:You sharpen your pencil six times. I don't and then I don't feel mastery when I accomplish it. I feel like caved into your control. And so that's a Yeah. It's just a subtlety, but, you know, I used to tell kindergarten teachers, like, ask your kids this and watch the transformation of the class.
Larry Thompson:We're going to be going to the library and the hallway can be hard for some of us. So like the goal is kind of letting everybody have their own space and being respectful. But I know touching and that's hard for some of us. So what I'm going to ask you to do is those of you that think you can do it without any coaching or help, I'm going to have you line up first, and then I'm going to walk with the ones that might need my help. They'll probably all line up.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. Versus we're going to the library, and you don't need to be touching people and talking to each other. Now you're gonna have a
Jordan Bassett:little Yeah. My
Larry Thompson:little strengths popping up all over. I touched something. She bumped me, you know, all over.
Jordan Bassett:And I didn't get caught.
Larry Thompson:That Look how strong I Exactly.
Jordan Bassett:That was me.
Larry Thompson:I I mean, that's like an oversimplified version, but, like, just set the class into motion for a mastery moment versus a autonomy battle.
Jordan Bassett:Well, and even the way that you phrase that is putting it into a perspective, like, understanding. Like, it's not just this authoritative, like, this is what you're gonna do is the way that you you were laying it out there is, I understand that this might be a little challenging, and I believe that you can do it, though. Like, you're still like, it can be. Oh, yeah. But you're strong and you're strong in being able to do what you need to do to
Larry Thompson:And it's okay if you need me. Yeah. That's my job. Like, you're not failing.
Jordan Bassett:We're here to support.
Larry Thompson:I can't push any hard. Like, I'm tired today. Like, can you help me? Yeah. Or I'm gonna walk in the back because I'll probably forget.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. Yeah, I think it sounds so simplified to say that, but I watch teachers just set the fight up Mhmm. Or, you know, we've had troubles with cell phones, so here comes the principal on the speaker. We're having a zero tolerance on cell phones, and kids are like, yeah. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:Wait. I'm looking at it right now while he's talking. You know, like, I'm feeling so strong. It's amazing something I
Jordan Bassett:was looking at a reel.
Larry Thompson:I'm making one of them.
Jordan Bassett:I'm making one right now.
Larry Thompson:So I mean, that's very simplified, but one of the things that I get to help teachers with a lot is just setting it up for mastery moments from the kid instead of setting it up from control. So I tell teachers all the time, if you coach children from the autonomy space in your brain, then you're angry when you can't get control of them. If you coach from the mastery place in your brain, you're disappointed when they won't take the spotting or the help. Two different people going home at the end of a school day. One, these kids don't listen to me, and she won't do what I say, and you hear it stuck in that autonomy fight.
Larry Thompson:And so that's one thing I suggest right away. Get away from these are my rules to like, these are the skills we gotta learn together. Get away from these are mine to control you, and these are ours to do well together. Yeah. Helps tremendously.
Larry Thompson:And then I'm even so firm on having kids rate themselves in those skills. Jordan, I've noticed your work hasn't been turned in. It seems like perseverance is hard. Is there something going on where you need some more help from me to accomplish the task? And sometimes life's dealing you hard stuff, you can be honest.
Larry Thompson:Versus if you're not going to do your work, Jordan, you could be in summer school.
Jordan Bassett:Like, I'm
Larry Thompson:just going sit the rest of year because I heard summer school only takes four weeks. You know, like here comes Jordans. Don't try to control me, Larry. And so I think that's a super simple way to just start. What if you just took the rules down and you replaced them with the skills?
Larry Thompson:Mhmm.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. And the the other thing, you use the word coach there, and I know that's that's a word you use a lot, like, in this context of helping kids build that strength. You know, when you're thinking about coaching, I played baseball growing up. You know, you may have a hitch in your swing or you're swinging a little high, little low. You know, you you're not quite swinging right, and the coach can recognize that.
Jordan Bassett:And I think there's a lot of layers to this idea of being a coach, because they can recognize that, kinda give drills. You can't necessarily see it as a player yourself. Like, what's hap everything's going so fast. You're not really seeing what's going on, but a coach can look at that from an outside perspective. But I think it also brings in the idea that it's not the teacher versus the kid.
Jordan Bassett:You know, when you're a coach, you're on a team, you're all trying to get to the same goal. And educators, likewise, shouldn't be looking at their kids as it's me against them. Like, you're just saying, like, I you know, when a teacher starts using that I language. But it it's the the mindset and the thought that, okay. This kid's struggling with perseverance, or I can kinda see that.
Jordan Bassett:What can I do as more of like a coach to give them some drills or lead them along the way so that we can be successful, not I can be successful as a teacher?
Larry Thompson:Yeah. And I come out of coach has changed my life. Yeah. You know what I mean? And mentors have changed me and guided me, and I've been able to do that for some people as well, and that feels really good.
Larry Thompson:But a coach will only keep their job, I mean, in higher level athletics, you will only keep your job if teams perform. So you have to separate all those things about you're going to, you're going to, and you have to look at each kid and be like, okay, this one I can't be too hard on. It causes him to play worse. He gets nervous. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:This one, I got to get a little tough on because he won't work if you don't get on him just to look like I'm finding how much spotting they need. Mhmm. And great coaches move all kids up. You you a few coaches get some stars, but you don't get all stars. Right.
Larry Thompson:So the job of winning on a team is getting the middle to rise up, kind of like a classroom. You got six kids that are going to do well no matter who their teacher is.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:And you got six kids that are going to struggle no matter who their teacher is. And you got a lot of middle. And so I like to use the analogy of coaching because a coach feels success as you improve. And, you know, I've never seen a coach when a kid strikes out like, yeah, should have been to practice Thursday. You know, it's like, darn it.
Larry Thompson:If he would have come Thursday, I could have helped him on that. Like my disappointment is when you're not finding your success. And I think that, so therefore, how do we help a teacher know how to step in and coach? So that's where we spend so much of our work is mastering the challenging moment. When your brain's in chaos and that kid's coming at you, how can you step in a spot?
Larry Thompson:I think teachers want to. Yeah. Like, my gosh,
Jordan Bassett:we just
Larry Thompson:don't
Larry Thompson:always know
Jordan Bassett:We
Larry Thompson:just always know how What's coaching look like then?
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:And so that's the fun work we get to do of like, well, let's talk about it. So, you know, we build like a framework where we can replace some things in their brains, so when those, I call it those arrows are being shot at you, you're kind of knowing where to go with the kid and still helping them get there. I love the word attunement, which says you can let somebody borrow some emotional control from you when theirs is struggling. So I tell teachers, can you imagine a space where when their emotional control is lost and they're coming at you, you know the skill to let them borrow some from you. Like, you're gonna think totally different when you're like, oh gosh, Jordan's gonna need some help here versus don't talk to me like that.
Jordan Bassett:It's like spotting more.
Larry Thompson:No. Intense knowing in the crisis.
Jordan Bassett:Right. It's knowing, oh, I need to give him a little bit more or I need to take some away. But, let's talk about that
Larry Thompson:Okay.
Jordan Bassett:That challenging moment. Yeah. You know? That's that's a I feel like, not feel like you use that word to be a little softer, challenging moment. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:You know? But I for me, I kinda define that as that moment where that kid even though you explained the expectations and you said don't touch the wall, and they're just walking down the hallway with their hand on the wall staring you in the eyes, like, are you gonna do, teach? But those when the the expectations it's not that they don't cut it, but
Larry Thompson:No. Here comes the defiance. Here comes the try and control me. Oh, yeah. Which just can stir that autonomy back into you.
Larry Thompson:You know? Like, I'm gonna get control somehow. Think a really simple and I don't want people to like think what we're doing is just phrases because we've seen trainings where you learn a certain jargon and then it's just repeated and kids don't like it. It feels fake.
Jordan Bassett:You said that to Tommy last week.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. And they mimic the teacher now because we sound like a robot.
Jordan Bassett:You're just going to say this.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. But one thing that can help a teacher in that moment to help them get out of the control part of their brain is a statement something like this, Jordan, it seems hard for you to keep your hand off the wall today. Make it the skill versus I told you don't touch the wall, and you're touching the wall. Because it is hard for him, or it's hard for him to do what he knows is right or whichever piece of hard is. And so I tell teachers a lot, just get your mindset into the skill.
Larry Thompson:You'll get a lot of ornery kids that when you say that, well, I could do it if I want to. I said, so it's actually something different. It's actually the skill of persevering and getting yourself to want to do the things that are hard. So let's talk about
Jordan Bassett:it.
Larry Thompson:Because everybody could say, If I want to, I could have this degree and I could do this job and I could be president. But that's I'll give you a fun one with really tough kids because I work in some pretty tough spaces, corrections and things with kids that are really at a tough spot. But when they'll say things like, I could do that if I want to, or I say, you know, and you've got to be real careful because you don't want to feel like you're talking down to him. And I said, what I hear when you tell me that and I want you to feel safe around me. But what I hear with that is, it's scary to even try to do this.
Larry Thompson:So I'll just push it off with if I wanted to. I don't want our relationship to be scary to fail. That's where we're going to get better. But think about how many times you're like, well, if I wanted, that's just like, I don't even want to try because that scares me working on my behavior or my anger or what could be scary and hard. So we really want to drill down to it and have kids be real honest and get to what is it.
Larry Thompson:Kids are like, you know, they're never gonna tell you first thing what it is. I mean, I've never seen a tough kid walk in. I might have a hard day today. Things didn't go well with my parent last night, and my dad hit my mom. And, you know, they're gonna come in like, you know something's wrong, but they're not going to disclose it.
Larry Thompson:They're not going to disclose it until we've been through lots of these layers together.
Jordan Bassett:And
Larry Thompson:I wanted a school where a kid could walk in and say, Mr. Thompson, I'll talk to you. Like, yeah. My brother got arrested last night, and I haven't even gone to bed. My mom made me come to school, so I'm probably gonna do terrible.
Larry Thompson:Like, you know what? That's integrity, man. Thank you for telling me. I'm gonna get you through the day. Even in the juvenile facilities with young men I work with, sometimes something happens on unit and they're gonna come trash the room.
Larry Thompson:I mean, their whole goal is cause as much as I can cause today because I'm angry at the world. So we do something with them so they can, because if you can get people to be self reflective, that's where you can get a lot of growth. And our kids that struggle aren't used to reflecting. And so I teach them like some really simple ways, which you can use with some of your high needs kids. When you come in my room, we're gonna shake hands at the door.
Larry Thompson:I can't memorize fancy handshakes. Some people can, so I just do a basic fist bump But they're gonna show me, thumb up, I'm good today. Middle, like, it's Okay. If they do thumb down, then I say to them, Go put your head down. I'll get class going.
Larry Thompson:And see you soon as I can. But them just willing to tell me I'm not good. That's like a huge relational builder with a teacher. Like this teacher, I can say, and it's not embarrassing. Nobody else saw it.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. And I don't even ask for work right then. I'm like, Go put your head down. And if some kid challenged me, Why does he get to I'll say, Talk to me after class. I'll be glad to explain to you what we're doing.
Larry Thompson:And you have that same option. And it's amazing, by the time I get to that kid, they're believing when I come over, I'm gonna help that thumb get back to at least the middle. At least the middle, yeah. So when people say build relationships, I actually think relationships are built through proper spotting more than they're built through fun games. They're fun, they're helpful games, the depth of our relationship comes when you help me, when I don't know what to do and I'm about to give up, or I step in and do something when you're like, I didn't even deserve that.
Larry Thompson:When kids say, I didn't deserve help, I say, You always deserve to be treated respectful. Yeah. But I mean, that's just another thing teachers can do is if you can get a kid to be honest of like, and I do it all the time, Jordan, I'll say like, How hard are you trying right now? Just tell me. You can be honest.
Larry Thompson:Like, How hard are you trying? I'm not trying because I'm tired. Well, we're going to talk about what do you do when you're tired and not like assignment assignment.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, yeah.
Larry Thompson:But then I guess first thing I would say is, but one of my goals on my wall is integrity and honesty. I appreciate that.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Larry Thompson:So you're really getting an A on your integrity.
Jordan Bassett:You told me you're not. You give the support.
Larry Thompson:You're not trying, but that, you know, who doesn't go to work some days and not I'm trying at a level one right now. I'm so tired,
Jordan Bassett:you know?
Larry Thompson:So I think there's a lot of little things like getting to that truth and that assessing, getting it to the skill. And then if you don't know what else to do with the kid, just support and show the benefit of them growing in that skill. You don't want to work today, Jordan. I'm not going to just push, push, push. But I don't want you to be a kid that when it gets hard, you just shut it down.
Larry Thompson:And so let's take a minute, but let's see if when I come back, you can get yourself to a two or three and I'll lift so hard today. You can make it with a two or three level. Yeah, like pretty soon, he's going, look. I tried it at five at least. You know?
Larry Thompson:My kids used to say that. So Yeah. I think those are just some some simple ways to to start to look
Jordan Bassett:at it. And I think the like, the thumbs up, thumbs down thing, it also helps with setting I don't know if this is the right word. Help me or help me here, but, like, somewhat expectations of the student. Like, I can I can think of a student coming in, and I don't know anything about their day, and they're mouthing off for a little bit more? And I can think, what's their problem?
Jordan Bassett:Like, what is why are you mad at me? And then I'm mad at the student, and it just kinda escalates from there opposed to walking to the classroom, and you already have an understanding. Hey. Something's up with them today. I now kind of know where they're at and can then move from there opposed to just making assumptions or saying, You gotta leave whatever happened, leave it at the door.
Jordan Bassett:You're in my class now.
Larry Thompson:So I'll give you a really fun example. I was working with a young teacher, and she was having a hard year, a fifth grade teacher. And she had come to a workshop, but she stayed after. And she said, I'm like on the bubble of quitting. Like it's my first year, it's not going well.
Larry Thompson:And I'm like, well, I haven't talked to anybody else in your school, but let's just look at your class. And she said, I got three little boys that could just take over the room whenever they want. So I just showed her the basics of getting them out of that autonomy by making it a skill, getting explicitly clear standards so they know exactly the target, and then when they hit it, recognizing them, and when they miss it, spotting them. And so I never thought I would see her again. Years later, a year later, I'm speaking somewhere else, and she waits, and she comes up, and she gives me a very neat written thing that she gave to me about her story.
Larry Thompson:But this is how it changed this young man, and this kind of fits what you were just saying. He used to hide and not come to class, like after recess or after, and but he's been doing really good. And she goes, I was so nervous that I actually wrote some of the strategies you gave me on my hand when I talked to him, and I would look down and support him and share the benefit with him. And she said, Today, didn't come to class after we went somewhere. And so I was like, Where is he?
Larry Thompson:And all the kids were like, I don't know. And she goes, He was doing so much better. I was shocked. And so I got the class started, then I was like, gonna have to make a call, like, Someone says, Not here. And he comes walking in.
Larry Thompson:And he sits in his desk, and she goes, I'll come see you in a minute. He's like, I know. Because she's gonna have to see what's going And she comes over, and he says, Can I talk first this time? She goes, Sure. Now, the signs I'm seeing in that is he trusts the conversations.
Larry Thompson:Yeah. He's not gonna get attacked. He's not gonna get this. They're gonna figure it out. And he says, You can look at the cameras.
Larry Thompson:I promise I'm telling you the truth. He says, I was not coming into the room, and I was waiting. And he showed her where he was waiting because I know in your class, the goal is always be respectful and try your hardest. And the kids were teasing me a lot at lunch today. And I was angry, and I wasn't going to be able to do either one for a while.
Larry Thompson:Wow. Yeah. Like, talk about a skill transfer. Like, he's now doing what the teacher used to spot. He's doing by himself.
Jordan Bassett:He can look at the
Larry Thompson:Spotting himself through, I can't do it yet, and I know if I go in there, I'm gonna fall below the threshold that she expects from me. Mhmm. I thought, man, I don't even know if you know how much you've given that kid. Like, that's a different kid. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:But she built that into him just from the basics of autonomy mastery and then coaching him and spotting him when he fell short. And he got a lot of coaching. Yeah. But those are kind of watching a kid's muscle change. And he's a different kid.
Larry Thompson:He's proud that he handled it. And I'm sure she let home know what a great job he did in a tough spot today. But I think what would most teachers without the understanding do in that situation or a lot of teachers? Where is he? Where are going?
Larry Thompson:Why did you get here on time? Why were you out in the home? Not even like
Jordan Bassett:Not even giving a little bit of room for Yeah.
Larry Thompson:Wow. So that always it moved me because this young teacher now has the tools that she's not going to quit teaching. She's going put them in my class. Watch what can be done.
Jordan Bassett:She has the mastery moment.
Larry Thompson:Her handing me the was her mastery moment. I want you to have this story. It worked and I was able to. And so my mission has been, you know, how many teachers are so much heart, but you can only lift other people's weight so long before you're sick of lifting other people's weight. Yeah.
Larry Thompson:And I think that's burning them out or they turn into anger, you know? Yeah. These dang kids getting worse. Nobody's ever told me kids seem easier. You know?
Larry Thompson:They're just getting easier each year. Yeah. No. They're getting harder.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. For sure. Well, Larry, thank you so much for spending this time with us on the podcast. There's a lot to unpack in this. I mean, whenever we get to talk, whether it's when we're working on something or just kinda sitting around, There's always really good conversation, I feel like, in in talking about education and or just people, really.
Jordan Bassett:A lot of this applies to just people in general. So I thank you so much for sitting with us and talking through all this all this different stuff. Larry, responsibility center discipline is, if you wanna look into that more, if you want to bring Larry to your school or anything like that, we'll have links to the give them five website in the show notes and everything like that. I hope you learned something today. I hope that you got something that, you can take into your classroom immediately.
Jordan Bassett:If you did learn something, if you feel like there's someone else who can use the information that Larry gave us today in the podcast, I wanna ask you to share this podcast with those people. Leave a review, and rate. We're not really asking that just to get to be like this big podcast. We wanna help as many educators as we possibly can, and that happens through sharing with the podcast and through, the the ratings and everything like that. So so please do that.
Jordan Bassett:I'll somewhat speak for Larry. I think this is true, that you agree that teaching is a difficult profession, but, it's a very rewarding one as well as we've talked about with the the mastery moments. And the hard work that you put into helping your students, helping them lift and spot them and everything like that is rewarded when you see those mastery moments, when you see them walk across that stage, when you see them succeed. So thank you for everything that you do. I really hope that you learned something from today's podcast that you can use in your classroom in fifteen minutes or tomorrow or next month, whenever the next time that you teach is.
Jordan Bassett:Thanks for learning with us today.