On this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast, we're sitting down with doctor Tracy Severance to talk about the use of joy and laughter in the classroom and this thing called the warm demander. Come on. Let's learn together. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast.
Jordan Bassett:It's Jordan here with Liz.
Liz Freeman:Hey, everybody. How's it going?
Jordan Bassett:How are you doing?
Liz Freeman:I'm doing excellent. How are you today?
Jordan Bassett:I'm pretty good.
Liz Freeman:Yeah?
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Liz Freeman:Yeah. We're on the ground here in where are we?
Jordan Bassett:Are in Vegas. We are recording in Vegas.
Liz Freeman:Las Vegas. So, yeah, honestly, we're just enjoying the city, the summit. Yeah. We're having fun, y'all. We're having fun.
Jordan Bassett:I had a question for you, Liz. This may seem a little strange, but we'll tie it into what we're talking about today.
Liz Freeman:Okay. Hit me with it.
Jordan Bassett:All right. What is something that someone can do for you that instantly brings joy to your heart?
Liz Freeman:Oh, my gosh. What is something that somebody does for me that instantly fills me with joy? Okay. This might sound like a basic answer, but I truly do mean it. Okay.
Liz Freeman:So, you know, when you're having a conversation with a friend or somebody that you trust or really love and like they put their phone down?
Jordan Bassett:Oh,
Liz Freeman:yeah. Like when they're like, hey, let me give you my undivided attention. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like that person really does care about that I'm sitting in front of them. I'm valued, I'm seen. And I'm like, hey, I can give all of myself in that.
Liz Freeman:And it makes me really happy. Because they're like, hey, doesn't matter. You are what matters.
Jordan Bassett:That's a fantastic answer. Honestly, we've known each other for a long time. I know. Feel kind of bad if that's not what I would have thought you would chosen at all.
Liz Freeman:I mean, honestly it makes a lot of sense. Just like to know that I'm valued in this space, man.
Jordan Bassett:Okay. So the reason why I asked that question
Liz Freeman:Okay.
Jordan Bassett:Is because we have Doctor. Tracy Severance here with us on this podcast.
Liz Freeman:Oh, gosh.
Jordan Bassett:And we're gonna be talking to her about bringing humor and joy back into the classroom. Oh. Yes. And So so just to kinda start with that, how are you doing, Tracy Severance?
Dr. Tracey Severns:I'm a little north of perfect.
Jordan Bassett:That's a good place to be.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Feel good today?
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. Yes. That's fantastic. So I say we just get into this, talking
Dr. Tracey Severns:Let's
Jordan Bassett:about
Dr. Tracey Severns:do it.
Jordan Bassett:Joy and humor. Though, this wasn't on the sheet that we gave you. Why is joy and humor in the classroom so important to you?
Dr. Tracey Severns:Because it's where it's that space where everything happens. I mean, when you think about experiences in life, what do you often remember? You remember what surprised you, what made you laugh. You remember those times, ways and places that you had a connection of the heart, almost in the soul that you respond on this deep level. I think there's nothing more just beautiful than laughter.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And have you ever seen any of those video clips with a baby laughing in the high
Liz Freeman:Yes, yes.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Everybody starts cracking up. Cannot resist. There's a purity to it that I think is so raw and so real. And it's a universal space where we can all connect irrespective of background or language or anything. And when I started teaching, my first experience was with kids who were so hard to reach and teach, the district spent 10s of 1000s of dollars to send them to somewhere else.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Wow. And so the children in this out of district placement were often wounded. They were vulnerable, sometimes angry. They were full of angst. They were really, really challenging.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And to teach a group of students who were just so volatile and vulnerable, you have to figure out a way. It really becomes a matter of survival. And what I discovered is when I was funny, if I would teach this an accent or something, or if I said something unexpected, they just were right in the palm of my hands. I mean, kids who were highly distractible, who were easily inclined to just instigate each other, they were right there. And I learned, particularly with very challenging children, the power of using humor.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Because when I used humor, not only were they more attentive, they remembered what I taught. They tended to be more creative in terms of how they would respond. Humor is associated with divergent thinking, with long term retention, and with building a sense of relationship and group cohesion. And that's what I wanted and needed to do with this group of really challenging children. And now that I work with adults, it's just as or more important.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So earlier today, did a pre conference. You're looking out at almost 300 people. And people today have an attention span about the length of I don't know, like a fleet. It's quite That might even
Jordan Bassett:be generous.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So if you use humor, people stay. They attend. And they don't want to miss out. It's just a way to really connect with and captivate an audience.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. Let's, I want to back up just a minute because you hit a couple of different things in there. But first, is you in your response there, we went all the way from your beginning of teaching to what you did a couple hours ago.
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's
Jordan Bassett:right. So let's just give So little you yeah, we know
Dr. Tracey Severns:that that's all It's everything.
Jordan Bassett:It's my
Dr. Tracey Severns:whole career.
Jordan Bassett:It's all over.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Thank you very much.
Jordan Bassett:But you've been you've been you've worked in a classroom. Mhmm. You let me see if I get all the stuff Okay. To remember. Worked in a classroom.
Jordan Bassett:You were an administrator, principal, assistant principal, all that fun stuff Mhmm. District level?
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes, superintendent.
Jordan Bassett:And did you do all, you know, elementary, middle, high, or did what was Well,
Dr. Tracey Severns:was Can I do it for you? Sure. I'll break it down.
Jordan Bassett:I was trying to show how much I remembered about what you
Dr. Tracey Severns:Okay, told don't hurt yourself.
Jordan Bassett:Okay. All
Dr. Tracey Severns:right, here we go. So I started as a para. Okay, I
Jordan Bassett:was
Dr. Tracey Severns:an aide in that school for really challenging children. Then I was a special ed teacher. Then I was a master teacher, which was a role that was kind of between teachers and administrators. So that was a challenging space. Then I was a Vice Principal, a Principal, a Superintendent.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I was Assistant Commissioner for the Department of Education in New Jersey. So I was Chief Academic Officer for two years. I was a Director of Student Performance. And then
Liz Freeman:I retired. My god! Were so many, Oh, you didn't
Dr. Tracey Severns:I know. But I retired. My daughter says I retired very badly. I'm busier now than ever before, traveling the world on a mission and with a message Yes. That we really can do this work.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:So the reason why I was trying to set that up Okay. Was to basically just say you've touched every pretty much every aspect of education. Mhmm. And this is still one of the most important things to you. I've that what I sense from you is humor I and think I think this is something that you said.
Jordan Bassett:It's in my notes of saying that joy is essential, not optional. Yes. And so I know the answer to this question, but wanna give you some space to elaborate. Would you say it is essential at every aspect, no matter where you are, whether you're in the classroom or at the administrator or district or
Dr. Tracey Severns:Absolutely. Because that's when we are really human. I believe we can do really serious work without taking ourselves so seriously. I mean, that if we can find the fun and funny in what we do, we're going to have people alongside us to do this together. I think when we if we get too in our heads, if we're too like, I'm so smart and like, oh my god, like it's so off putting.
Dr. Tracey Severns:You just shut up.
Jordan Bassett:This girl released.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I know.
Liz Freeman:Bad are calling me
Jordan Bassett:out. Gosh. You don't actually You're one of the most natural, normal, joyful people that I know.
Liz Freeman:That's He did not need to make me start crying on this That was rude.
Jordan Bassett:But Take thank the compliment and move on.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Thank you. Accept it. Thanks, guys. Appreciate So I think in every role that one of the places that we connect, again, that transcends all differences is laughter. And I think it can be very wholesome and healthy and it is memorable.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Our brains just light up. And so whether we're working together, learning together, or just trying to be together as humans in this shared space, I think doing that over laughter and joy is so important. It makes everything better.
Jordan Bassett:It really yeah. It really is. And it makes a lot of sense, but it seems like such a normal thing to, like, overlook. But when I like listeners or anyone here just like to think back, I'm thinking of some of my most strongest memories
Dr. Tracey Severns:Mhmm.
Jordan Bassett:Are those with laughter Yeah. Or a joke or a humor. I mean, a thing that you go and you tell people about. So I can see how with an in education, partnering those two things together, like even if you're making a joke of, you know, some learning criteria or something Mhmm. Like it can be memorable running home.
Jordan Bassett:Mom, mom, you know, miss Severin said this joke today. Well, why'd she say that? Oh, she was teaching us about, you
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's know, how it right.
Jordan Bassett:Links together.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Because all those things, there's hooks, there's connections to what the substance was. And then if we bring out what's fun or funny about that, where the magic like you said, that's what you remember. If you think back like, I think that people today, and one of the things that people approach me when I was downstairs trying to buy my terrible turkey wrap no offense to Caesars, but $28 really. I don't think so. Three young women came up and they're like, that was so amazing.
Dr. Tracey Severns:You were so funny. And that wasn't the presentation on humor. But if you weave in fun and funny, if you're a little self deprecating, if you just like are spontaneous, you just go with it in the moment. Like if you just pay attention, there's so much that's funny all around us. It's a matter of what are you looking at and what are you looking for as you move through the world.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And we can really have a more enlivened, joyful, upbeat experience If instead of going through the world looking at the latest offense or a front or something that didn't work that makes us mad, you look for the you know, what was humorous like those those little things. I mean, schools are funny things happen in schools. Look
Jordan Bassett:at TikTok.
Dr. Tracey Severns:There's a lot that's So that's the thing is to look for those things sit with those as opposed to just the negative stories.
Liz Freeman:They always say you always like find what you're going to look for. Like you always in your mind are already predispositioned. If you're going to look for the negative, you're going to find the negative. But if you are one of those few people who are like, No, I'm going to look for the positive, I'm going to find the joy, the hope, the laughter, you're definitely going to
Dr. Tracey Severns:find Yes. What I say is every day we make a choice, whether we're going to go on a witch hunt or a treasure hunt. You going to go hunt
Jordan Bassett:treasure hunt?
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's right. There you go. The promise is that you'll always find what you're looking for because those are the lenses through which you see the world. And like I said, schools, they can tell stories of success and of breakthroughs or horror stories. And, you know, again, you're gonna find what you're looking for.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, that's true. I can definitely think back to like times with myself where I've flipped between those two mentalities and how my day goes is based off of which one of those I choose in the morning.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yeah, true. That's true, What's mood? Like what are you going to How are gonna move? I think one of the best things So for a short time, I took comedy lessons. So I, which was crazy.
Jordan Bassett:What a self improvement maneuver. And
Dr. Tracey Severns:it's so terrifying. It's terrifying because it's like, okay, get up there, stand under the lights and make me laugh. So that's really not what I'm all about. But it's about learning how to look for the funny and share those things in a way that makes people laugh, that just elevates their mood. And the best part about taking comedy lessons is when I was looking for material, I went through the world looking for what was funny, instead of looking
Jordan Bassett:for what was
Dr. Tracey Severns:wrong and what was bad and what makes you angry. Because when you live in New Jersey, there's plenty of stuff is that a can lot. Make you From the traffic to the people to all of, like there's plenty of stuff that can make you angry. But why? Why live in that space?
Dr. Tracey Severns:So it was the best because when you found anything on like a sign in a store where the apostrophes in the wrong place, that's doesn't make any sense like or just any of those little things. That's it just changes your worldview.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, it really does. So how do you see bringing we've kind of talked in a general sense. I want to bring us back into like a classroom.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes.
Jordan Bassett:How do you relate all of that into if we like giving some examples of what happens to a teacher in a classroom when they switch from the witch hunt to the treasure hunt.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So here's the simplest thing. Okay, you ready? It requires no PD and it's free.
Jordan Bassett:Perfect.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Okay. Okay. Ready? Smile.
Liz Freeman:It's that simple, It is.
Dr. Tracey Severns:There's research to suggest that we don't necessarily smile because we're happy, But we're happy because we smile. And you can smile your way into a better mood. And so I mean, that's something that I do. Just smile when I was on the plane coming down here, and the guy next to me was like really crowding me, and I'm thinking about all the challenges that I'm going to face, I'm thinking like I need to smile. Like when you smile, it just lifts your whole mood.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So smile costs nothing. Smiles are contagious, because when you smile at someone I did that today. So when I was walking through the halls, I would look at people and smile, and there's almost a double take because they don't expect that. Right.
Jordan Bassett:It's almost like the norm they're expecting is
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's it. And I really think we underestimate the impact of smiling. And just as a principal, as a teacher, just smiling more. I'll also say that it's not on the teacher solely to elevate the joy that we can involve the kids in doing that. So one way a lot of teachers have jobs, right?
Dr. Tracey Severns:The kids have different jobs. A wonderful job is a greeter, is student who stands at the door and speaks every child's name and welcomes them to the classroom that That costs nothing. It takes no all when you set up your jobs, you just add a greeter or you add a smile starter. And that's the person who brings something like funny, a little meme, a little like, there's so many things around us that we can and we can teach kids how to make sure the humor is appropriate. And that can be what a great life lesson.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So here's another example. If you're a teacher and you're going to do the how to essay you remember, like the how to essay.
Jordan Bassett:Oh, like where you're writing
Dr. Tracey Severns:Like how to like
Jordan Bassett:how to make a sample.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Like how to do that, make sure it's clear and in the proper sequence. One of my favorite how to essays is how to annoy a teacher. You want
Jordan Bassett:read Do have something content right now?
Dr. Tracey Severns:I examples that I saved. Because the kids are so funny. And they would say like, raise your hand like you have a question. And when she calls on you say, I forgot. And then later you raise your hand and keep doing that.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Like they know exactly what pushes everyone's buttons. So assessments could be funny if you have a funny question. Like we all know the classic and what year was the War of eighteen twelve or just little things to add some levity. The mistake is believing this is something else, something extra that's going to make it harder for me. And it isn't, because I think what we have in common is everyone wants that too.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, and I think there's, I'm not gonna say think, I know. I know there's a human element that comes. You said it a little bit earlier of laughing and making jokes together. Mhmm. And I think that's really important too for students to know, oh, they're fun.
Jordan Bassett:Like, they're just they're not just robots regurgitating information. They're not just they don't just care about the test scores or care about the grades or, you know, whatever. Like, they wanna have fun too. And it's like, my teacher's a human also.
Liz Freeman:Just a bigger person than me.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes. And we can bring that into the classroom. And principals can bring that to the faculty. Because our stories shape our perceptions, which determine our experience. And unfortunately, many times in schools, what starts to happen is people get status by having the bigger, badder story.
Dr. Tracey Severns:You know what happened to me? I've been fascinated nothing. By happened to me? But we can shift the narrative in a very deliberate way. At least Simon Sinek says one of the great powers of a leader is the power to shape the narrative of their school.
Dr. Tracey Severns:But we need to make space for that, and we need to invite that. So if you have teachers who come into the faculty room, you know, and they're sitting with their people and they're sitting in the groups, have them share with each other a good story, a breakthrough, a success, and then have them determine whose story we're going to share with the whole group. And what you find is it just starts to elevate the mood. In the absence of cultivating those kinds of stories, the negative will typically take Right.
Jordan Bassett:There's a vacuum and a story needs to fill that space.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes.
Jordan Bassett:But are you cultivating an atmosphere where the positive fills or the negative fills that space?
Dr. Tracey Severns:Exactly. Are those good stories? When I do this with teachers, I some elementary teachers the other day and I said, tell us a funny story. What happened in your class that was really funny? And one of the kindergarten teachers said that they started to do show and tell again.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So they just reinstated the practice. And one of the little girls brought in the purple furry handcuffs from her mom's side tape
Jordan Bassett:Oh, no. From the nightstand. My god. It's like Earlier I told you this is a family friendly Well,
Dr. Tracey Severns:I'm sure it was for in case any, you know, bad guys broke in or something. Absolutely.
Liz Freeman:100%.
Jordan Bassett:That's what it was. Yeah.
Dr. Tracey Severns:But that's hilarious.
Jordan Bassett:That is hilarious.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And kids write funny things and say funny things. I remember when I was a superintendent, used to visit classrooms and I was walking out of a kindergarten classroom once, and I heard a little boy say to another boy, you know who that was? And the other boy said, who? He said, that was the Super Nintendo.
Jordan Bassett:That's a badge of honor for that title. I think you should have gotten a little name plate
Dr. Tracey Severns:Super or Nintendo. It's just, I mean, it's really funny. Funny things funny things happen.
Jordan Bassett:That's great. Well, we're gonna take just a little break.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Okay.
Jordan Bassett:And then we'll continue this conversation. This has been great so far. So listeners, hang tight for a minute, and we'll be back.
Liz Freeman:See you soon.
Jordan Bassett:Welcome back to the Innovative Schools podcast. We have Tracy Severance here. Yeah. Doctor Tracy Severance, you paid good money, a lot of time. Wanna make sure.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Thank you.
Jordan Bassett:Your husband said had to say it at least
Dr. Tracey Severns:four times. Yes. That's right.
Liz Freeman:So one
Dr. Tracey Severns:more time. Okay.
Jordan Bassett:And we got got Liz here. Yes. We're talking about bringing joy and humor and all the positivity back into the classroom and everything like that. I have a word. Well, guess it's two words on my notes here.
Jordan Bassett:Warm demander.
Dr. Tracey Severns:The warm demander pedagogy.
Jordan Bassett:Okay.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes. Tell us about that.
Jordan Bassett:It sounds like it's the opposite of the cold unreliant. I don't know. The cold. I don't know. I have no idea.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I don't know. You were trying to set me up. Did that.
Liz Freeman:It sounds positive.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yeah. No, it's I was
Jordan Bassett:just- I don't know, demanding sounds negative.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Can, it can. It's- always. Yeah, that's true. Because really, I believe that high expectations is the greatest compliment you can give anybody. Because it says like, I believe you can rise.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So a demander who says, you know, do it again, you're better than that, like you can do this.
Jordan Bassett:Almost like coaching. Yes. I feel like is kind of a relatable idea to that.
Liz Freeman:Yes.
Jordan Bassett:Pal, I know You can do it. I've seen you do it before.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I believe in you. That's right. So the warm demander pedagogy and I apologize, I was just playing with you before. When I got right back to you, you were like, We're
Jordan Bassett:gonna come back to that later.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I'm gonna try
Jordan Bassett:and draw the line
Dr. Tracey Severns:between humor Here and
Jordan Bassett:we go.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Here we go. Yeah. Alright, so warm demander pedagogy. Warm demander pedagogy says this, it's based on a genuine, caring relationship. I will accept from you nothing less than your best, that you will treat me, yourself and your peers with respect.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So the warm demander pedagogy exists at the intersection of press and care. Okay, so press and care not push. Because what do you get when you push, you get pushed back. It's right in our vernacular, right? But press is like a warm, strong guiding hand on the low back that brings us to our higher selves.
Jordan Bassett:So
Dr. Tracey Severns:press and care. I love you enough. I care about you enough to require of you that you do your very best, that you rise. So when teachers teach with the warm demander pedagogy, they do some from a place that's a genuine caring relationship, and that offers the rigor necessary to master the hard stuff. So the highest levels of achievement, the highest levels of performance are associated with the warm demander pedagogy, because it says, I love you, I care about you.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And I demand from you that you be your best.
Jordan Bassett:I love the and there. Yes. I'm a real stickler for people who may put, but. Yes. In that set in that space.
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's right.
Jordan Bassett:I always feel that that word but negates everything before it. Exactly. And so having the and, it's both of those things together.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I tell people all the time, keep your but to yourself. Fair. That's what I say. Do, I say that. But you know, I believe in and.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And Jim Collins in his book, Good to Great, he talked about the tyranny of the or, and the genius of the and. So the tyranny of the or causes us to believe that we have to pick. So we can have rigor or relationships. We can teach to standards or have smiles. We can have care or cover content.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And I say, no. What it's about is and and I say to people whether I'm teaching or working with leaders, it's meet me in the land of and where we can do two seemingly contradictory things at the same time. See, we don't have to pick that's a false dichotomy to believe that if the work in the classroom is rigorous, where there's productive struggle, where kids are being challenged, that that isn't showing care. It is because it is through the struggle that the learning happens. And you know, one of my noticings post pandemic is that many teachers have lost frustration tolerance.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And what I mean by that is they have lost tolerance for frustration on the part of their kids. So when I say to them, well, challenge them. This is, you know, this has several possible answers. You mean
Jordan Bassett:when the kids get frustrated?
Dr. Tracey Severns:The teachers have lost tolerance for allowing their kids to struggle. Say that's going to be too hard for them. They're going to get upset. And I say, it's in how it's presented. It's in this invitation to rise.
Dr. Tracey Severns:It's buttressed by high expectations. So if you come from that place, then the greatest compliment you can offer someone is high expectations, because it says I believe in you. The warm demander says, we can celebrate together this success that you will achieve. When I teach you from that upper right quadrant, if you picture press and care, high, low, low, high, at high, high up in that upper right quadrant is high press and high care. And that's where success resides.
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's where that
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. So Liz, let me ask you a question. When you yeah, I'm turning to you now. Yeah.
Liz Freeman:Okay.
Jordan Bassett:When you do something that you struggle with and you succeeded, are you more or less likely to share it with people than if you just did something that you like was easy?
Liz Freeman:No. I feel like when you really are in that fight to do something like that one time I needed to learn how to chop a piece of wood And at your I was like, my dad had, you know, like an axe, but we didn't have any wood at my house. So I said, Jordan, I need to learn.
Jordan Bassett:We had a dead tree and we had it cut down and then we were cutting firewood. And Liz said
Dr. Tracey Severns:You brought her over to cut your
Jordan Bassett:Well, said that she wanted to learn how to chop wood.
Liz Freeman:I had never done it before.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Okay.
Liz Freeman:I never done it before.
Jordan Bassett:I said, sure, come on.
Liz Freeman:Poor Jordan had to watch me struggle, Struggle, you know, to also- did y'all know axes are really heavy? What? So, know, just swinging around and hit it like right at that point where it's going to break and split. And it was a struggle. And he had to watch me over and over and over again try.
Liz Freeman:And when I split that log, what did I do?
Jordan Bassett:You screamed like, I mean, in triumph.
Liz Freeman:I was so excited. And honestly, like I had told like my friends about it. There was video footage. Like it was really exciting. It's the silliest thing.
Jordan Bassett:Maybe we'll put it the show notes.
Liz Freeman:No, y'all want to see.
Jordan Bassett:You know, I bring that up. I'm not just trying to make banter, but I'm glad you brought that. I wasn't even thinking about that story. But I was asking you about that because I think it plays into what you're saying of when we accomplish something that was demanding and stressful, we are so much more excited about the result to even to be sharing it or to any of those different things. I remember in that, asked me.
Jordan Bassett:You said while you're trying to cut the piece, you said, I can't do it. I said, well, I'm not helping you. He did. He did. There
Dr. Tracey Severns:you go.
Liz Freeman:No, he did. He was like, you can do that. You can do this. Keep trying. Keep struggling.
Liz Freeman:I'm going to give you tips and pointers, but I'm not gonna do it for you and I'm not gonna let you walk away. Warm demander. Warm demander. Good pal. Thanks, Jordan.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Warm demander. I love that. Like an example I give adults sometimes is I like to do the New York Times, like those little puzzles Wordle and connections and things like that. And sometimes connections is so hard. It's so hard trying to find the four groups of four words.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And my sense of jubilation at getting that right is so much different than when I resort to like checking a hint. You know, you can go on the hints for connections. I it just is like, like, don't I got it, but so what? But the Eureka moment
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Is I
Jordan Bassett:did it. So how do you pair? There's a couple of different questions I have here here, I think, which is you have a class of twenty, twenty five. Warm and Banner probably means something different to every one of those Yeah. Students.
Jordan Bassett:Mhmm. But then also pairing as we were talking about like humor and things with that warm demander pedagogy.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yeah. Well, the warm demander think about, you know, what you were talking about Liz, you experienced you described and I watched your whole face light up even with the memory, but that's what it does. Evokes feelings of joy. So here's what we need to be careful that we don't conflate humor like, did you hear the one about the like, it doesn't have to be jokes. It doesn't have to be, it can be giving kids a chance to experience that breakthrough, that success, where you don't over function for them, where you don't, I'll give you hints, like just allow the struggle, like just grant it space be there as a guide and the joy that follows will come completely from the kids.
Jordan Bassett:Sure.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Like, I did it, I did it, I did it, you know what? So it's very real and it doesn't have to be, you know, like, oh, you're bringing in images from the it doesn't it just can be something very natural that occurs in the classroom. Yeah.
Liz Freeman:I had a question.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes.
Liz Freeman:I know like, especially for students who, you know, maybe just have like a ton going on, like there is a lot of like negativity and stuff maybe in their home life or just things that they're experiencing. I know like this might be a basic question. But for a teacher who's, you know, trying to implement something like this in a really practical way, for a student who's like really struggling and I mean getting to that point where they're like, I'm about to give up or blow up or something like that, what are some like just normal, natural, warm ways that a teacher can just come alongside in a helpful way to say like, I believe in you. And maybe it's just as simple as saying I believe in you, but what are some ways that you found helpful that you're helping those students understand, I'm expecting a lot of you, but I know you can do it?
Dr. Tracey Severns:Think one of the things you can do is say, Well, tell me what have you figured out so far? Where are you now? Like, okay, you're into it this far, you're getting you're a little stuck here. What else have you tried? I think there's real power in inquiry when you're coming from a place where you're helping people tap into their own resources to build their own resiliency.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And so, you know, well, you know, it started with this, like think of anything you first learned, it's typically messy. It's not what you want it to be. But you recognize that it is more than it was. And you help like, what can you do now that you couldn't do before? And you celebrate that and you recognize and acknowledge the learning progressions.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And I think helping help people see not their deficits or the shortfall, like where you aren't, but the progress you've made so far. And sometimes that can build some striving and some momentum to try to get to the next thing. I think staying in it, I think not being not offering just vacuous praise that kids are like, that's not even genuine. But I noticed that you did this, and you got to the next step. What else could you?
Dr. Tracey Severns:So students are not drawn in by what they know is disingenuous, vacuous praise. They can tell when you're not. So I think really having process oriented or task oriented, when I say feedback, that helps kids move forward. And I think there's also I want to come back, Liz, because you had said in the beginning, some kids come to school and they've got a lot on their hearts and their minds and their but think of a time when you had hardship in your life. Someone wasn't well, there was a worry.
Dr. Tracey Severns:A little respite from that, like a vacation from those troubles can be to be fully immersed in something that genuinely interests and engages you. So the idea that, well, these kids come from a tough place, so I can't ask a lot of them is not true. This can be a place where they let those things go.
Liz Freeman:It's like a safe place.
Dr. Tracey Severns:They don't have to sit there and ruminate all day like, yeah, I wonder if dad's going to come home to yeah, I wonder if we'll the power will why leave them in that all day? And speaking of that whole, that idea of and and or, one of the things that really frost my Cheerios, like when I kept hearing people say like
Jordan Bassett:I'm using that one later.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Like post pandemic, Maslow before bloom, Maslow before bloom, no. And we can Maslow talked about those needs and taking care of safety and all of those things. Bloom talked about thinking, what about and because a great way to fully engage someone and we can keep it safe during that, we can make sure they're fed and watered and they're moving toward like all those safety needs and give them something worthy and real and authentic to solve, something else to think about.
Jordan Bassett:I was just thinking about that and in that situation of you can attend to their needs and help them have a respite. Yes. It's like, it's both. And sometimes that can be a fine liner, be tricky, but it's true just thinking back through times that have been kinda tough, having one good laugh, having one, you know, even it's 30 long, but it's just
Dr. Tracey Severns:It's a release. It's a real it is really a release. Yeah. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Well that kind of brings us into another area of this whole humor, in the classroom thing
Dr. Tracey Severns:of
Jordan Bassett:the line between humor and either sarcasm or distraction. Because there's a lot of variables there. What I can say, a joke that I may be able to say to Liz, I may not be able to say to you or to someone else or someone who doesn't quite know or different situations and things may not land well. Maybe you accidentally create more hurt without knowing. So I just want to hear from you and like for us to talk just a little bit about those lines between this is funny and that was not.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes. And it's so important to know your audience. You know, when we work with children, there are different developmental levels. Some are in a very concrete phase. So if you say something in jest, they may think it's literal.
Dr. Tracey Severns:You know, what we want to make sure is that there are no victims.
Jordan Bassett:Absolutely.
Dr. Tracey Severns:There's no victims. I as a middle school principal, I had a sixth grade science teacher who thought sarcasm was funny. But the sixth graders to whom he directed that certainly did not. And I'll tell you is he often used it toward some of my more struggling or my special needs youngsters. And it was very hurtful that they would try to disappear in the classroom or avoid it altogether.
Dr. Tracey Severns:You know, sometimes humor can be cutting, it can be unkind, we need to make sure that there are no victims, that it's at that right level. You know, it just needs to be done with a sense of awareness.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, my dad used to tell me before walking out the door every morning, he'd say, Use your humor for good, not for evil.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Like your superpowers. Everyday.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. Can either be a superhero or a supervillain. Yes.
Dr. Tracey Severns:That's right. Mean, listen That's what
Jordan Bassett:tell me.
Dr. Tracey Severns:So, know, and we've all seen comedians or people who pick on a certain ethnicity or a certain like, and they say when I took comedy lessons, they teach you never punch down. So to other groups or populations that are often kind of victims, if you will, that's not where you go. It might be it's cheap. It's easy and it's cheap, and it's not really funny. Because the laughter that you get from that is discomfort.
Dr. Tracey Severns:It's right? You know It's an uncomfortable laugh, not like,
Jordan Bassett:that was really funny.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Right. You're like, Ugh, okay. So it really is, it needs to be done with a level of sensitivity, you know, and awareness. And if you cross the line inadvertently once, be big enough to apologize. Say maybe, you know, maybe I went a little too far.
Dr. Tracey Severns:You know, I think that's important too, is to own it. If you don't I think with kids, it's especially important that it's done at their level so that they understand and can laugh with you and understand no one's laughing at them.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, I think that's a really good distinction. That's something in my daughter I've been trying to work on. And she nailed it the other day. She did such a good job with it. So we were in the car and we were about to go into a store, but it's raining.
Jordan Bassett:So I was telling her, hey, when we get out, we gotta go quick. We gotta we gotta get there. We don't wanna get wet. And she just looks at me and with this snarky little face, but like in the right way she says, dad, you don't wanna feel the rain on your skin? And I was like, what?
Jordan Bassett:She goes, no one else can feel it for you.
Dr. Tracey Severns:My gosh.
Liz Freeman:Natasha is like, yes ma'am. The naturopath lady. She just,
Jordan Bassett:she's eight. She just threw it out there. There's really no victims in there. What it was is she was, I said that to my wife a handful of days earlier.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Oh, okay.
Jordan Bassett:She I yelled at To call back. It was. She called back. No one's the victim. Well timed.
Jordan Bassett:Right place. I literally I gave her a high five. I said, that's good humor. Yeah, it is. That's a great way to That's use right.
Jordan Bassett:That's it. That's it.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Keep it light. Awesome. And I told her.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. What is a well, I don't wanna get into bashing people. But we talked a little bit earlier about there's success stories and there's failure stories of using humor. Mhmm. Let's just stay on the lie side.
Jordan Bassett:What's one of your success stories that you have about using humor in the classroom, either from you or from something that you heard from someone?
Dr. Tracey Severns:Let's see. Well, know when I was first teaching in the school for students who had been sent to these out of district placements. So the students at the time, their classification was ED or BD, emotionally disturbed, behaviorally disturbed. So it was really tough kids and just even little things like puns. One of the girls in my class, she used to call me Corny Severins.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Your name isn't Tracy Severins, it's Corny Severins. So it's sometimes it's like versions almost of dad jokes, but they're like, you know, they're just, it's just something that even in the in the spur of the moment, a little play on words, a little something that can make them laugh. I think as principal, I was talking with some principals the other day and I said one of my favorite stories is before the eighth grade dance, I had three girls come to me and asked me to teach them how to walk in heels. And we walked in there like, well, we know you know, because we always hear you flip, flip, clipping down the hallway. And it was just one of those times where it just was so cool.
Dr. Tracey Severns:That they trusted me, that they brought their heels and we walked around my office and they were terrible at it. They're doing it in all this like really awkward kind of way and everything. But it was just, it was so adorable. And when they walked in to the dance, you know, they came walking in feeling like they had it going on. And yes, they kicked their shoes off five minutes into it and everything.
Jordan Bassett:They walked in with did. Those on.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And they looked at me with like, taught us. Was just a special moment. One of the things that I do to help people reconnect to their why is I ask them, Talk about a teacher who made a difference in your life and everyone has that person. Who lifted you up? Who saw something in you that maybe you didn't even believe was there?
Dr. Tracey Severns:And people smile and connect and they talk about that. And I want them to remember you could be that person for someone in your class. So fantastic. Connect to the people who were that for you, or talk about a moment that you're really proud of. And I'll tell you when I was at that school, I had a student named Anthony.
Dr. Tracey Severns:And he really struggled in lots of ways. Out of the blue, he contacted me just a couple years ago, and I taught him in like the early 90s. And he said, I just want to tell you I'm in my final years of med school.
Liz Freeman:My gosh, wow.
Dr. Tracey Severns:It took me a long time. And I'm almost done Because of you. He said you always believed in me. And you what I want people to remember is every day you leave a mark. My question is, is it a scar?
Dr. Tracey Severns:Or like a smile? Like what are you leaving? Like, every day, you leave that impression. So live into your legacy.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Dr. Tracey Severns:How do you want to be remembered? And it's as simple as seeing you like looking at people, seeing noticing like, oh, you so I used to walk down the hall when I was a principal and I'd stop one of my girls and say, Look at what did I tell you? What is the rule in this school? No one's allowed to look better than the principal and girl, you look good. And they'd be like, oh, they just walk away a little.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Do you see each other? So simple. In fact, the fact that it's so powerful and so deceptively simple is what I think makes us what it eludes us sometimes. Like, how could it be? But it can be that.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Can be really in a smile and in a positive attitude.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. Well, I'll tell you through this whole conversation where we started with joy and humor and where we've ended now. You have left a a good mark
Dr. Tracey Severns:Oh, thank you.
Jordan Bassett:On me. Oh, you can talk for yourself.
Liz Freeman:But No. Seriously. Wow.
Jordan Bassett:And I hope that I I can't see how anyone couldn't listen to this podcast and also feel the same way. So Oh, that's good. I really appreciate you coming and and being on this podcast with going through everything. We covered a lot of ground, and I think that's fantastic. And I really appreciate it.
Jordan Bassett:So anyone have anything to say before we close this one out?
Liz Freeman:Yeah, no. Honestly, just, I think you've left us. I mean, the teachers who are listening, as well as like myself, just really how we are walking in our legacy today.
Dr. Tracey Severns:Yes.
Liz Freeman:What we're leaving behind. And like seriously moment by moment, wow. You've just given me a lot to think on. Thank you, girl. You're helping us be better.
Dr. Tracey Severns:I appreciate it. All right. Thank you so much.
Jordan Bassett:Absolutely. All right, everyone. We're gonna close out this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast. I know. I don't hope you learned something.
Jordan Bassett:I know you learned something today. No, you Or were reminded of something. And we hope that you can take some humor into your classroom, help every student, every person, not just the students, every person, your coworkers, everyone. Help them smile. Smile more.
Jordan Bassett:Smile more. But we know teaching's a hard job, and we don't wanna to to negate that. But we can smile, and the job can be hard at the same time. So thank you all for listening. We'll see you at the next episode.
Jordan Bassett:Guys.