On this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast, we sit down with Kim Johansson to define teacher burnout and how to respond and prevent it. Come on. Let's learn together. Hey, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast.
Jordan Bassett:Jordan here with Will. We're trying to have some fun today, but having fun while still talking about something, we think is pretty pretty serious, something that we wanna help educators with, which is, burnout. That's one of the things that we're gonna talk about today. But before we get to that, Will, our question right now to open this podcast is what's a moment in your life when you realized stress was taking a toll? Oh.
Jordan Bassett:Okay. Do you need me to talk first and then you can make No.
Will Anthony:Think I got So before I was before I worked here at Accutrain, I used to work at Chick fil A. And I think that there was a part of me that took on too much. And I know that it can seem like it's, you know, a fast food job and it's not crazy, but it can get crazy, especially with any job where you're dealing with multiple people and multiple co workers all the time. And I think there was a part that I took on a sense of perfection or seeking that perfection and just putting, you know, chicken sandwiches in bags and I think that I took any sort of shortcoming or slowness or failure, anything that went on as a personal dig at myself and I would become really stressed over it and really worried about it, and sometimes I would spend the rest of the day just trying to make up for it, which then having the issue happen would drain me and then trying to make up for it would drain myself even more. And the next day I wasn't fully rested, and the cycle would repeat.
Will Anthony:So I think sometimes multiple times a week back when I worked at Chick fil A would have is a good example of when I kinda let stress take that toll on me and kinda bring me down.
Jordan Bassett:I am very bad at recognizing stress building in my
Will Anthony:life. Really?
Jordan Bassett:Like and it takes, like, changes physical changes for me to start to notice. Things like headaches or I remember one time sitting at work and just all of a sudden, just like heart racing
Will Anthony:Mhmm.
Jordan Bassett:Sweaty, thinking 1,800 miles an hour. I had to get up from my desk and go outside.
Will Anthony:Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Like, was like, I just need to go and walk. And I still don't know exactly what triggered that moment in me. Mhmm. But I knew that those physical changes of what was happening, because it lingered for days of just like it, like, kind of sitting there. And then I started to get the the stress and anxiety of having stress and anxiety
Will Anthony:Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Which just made it even even worse.
Will Anthony:That wonderful cycle. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. It just it piled on and on and on. So mine is more of like that fit like physical feeling of different things that start to key me in that I'm starting to you know, stress is taking its toll. Mhmm. And I think one of the important things about or like understanding about stress is that everyone kind of experiences it differently.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. But I'm not the expert We in have Kim Johansson here, who is a bit of an expert
Jordan Bassett:on
Jordan Bassett:stress and several things. And we're gonna get into a little bit of your background. But first, we wanna ask you that question. What's the moment in your life when you realized stress was starting to take its toll?
Kim Johancen:Well, I think one of the first things that pops out for me would be grad school. Yeah. That you know, just too much, all at once. But I also as you guys are talking, thinking about, you know, when I first started my own practice, I work with suicidal kids. And you can only have so many crisis clients on your caseload and still feel effective, right?
Kim Johancen:And I got wonky. My caseload absolutely got wonky. And I had, I couldn't turn it off anymore. Like I would leave work and I couldn't transition where I was just leaving work at work. Rumination.
Kim Johancen:So Yeah. I mean, just ruminating constantly on did I do the right thing? What should I do? How's that person gonna be tonight? Where then my health really started to get affected.
Will Anthony:Can't even imagine going through that, honestly. I can't even especially more than one. You know? I've I've had some difficult situations with, you know, certain people in my life before, but I can't imagine there being two possible names in front of me, and let alone maybe more than that. That's I can't even imagine.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. Well and I think the lesson for me, I actually had a peer, a mentor, really, like, just kinda, hey. We should really look at your caseload. And, you know, he was absolutely seeing the signs before I was really connecting to it being stress
Will Anthony:Mhmm.
Kim Johancen:Related. And, you know, that was a moment that was hard, but it was also a moment where I had to take stock. Like, how am I going to sustain a career doing this? Yeah. And that I didn't have to do it by myself.
Kim Johancen:Right? Like, I am really diligent about making sure I have people around me that I can go to for support, that can help me make sure that I'm making decisions professionally that are sound because I think we can get a little foggy sometimes under stress, most certainly.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We're going to keep talking about that burnout and stress stuff, but let's back up for a second. So you are a therapist, counselor? Is that the same?
Jordan Bassett:Either or. Okay.
Kim Johancen:Yes. I'm a therapist.
Jordan Bassett:Don't really know. I just you've been a therapist for how long?
Kim Johancen:Over thirty years now.
Jordan Bassett:Okay. Yeah. So over thirty years. And you were a counselor in a school.
Kim Johancen:Yeah, for half my career, I was in schools. I was actually in a middle school and a high school. And then I was in a college setting. So I was in a counseling center at Fort Lewis College in Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Like as a as a therapist, not as like a guidance counselor. Correct. Sorry. That's I I hear counselor in school, and that's where my brain goes first. But you were actually working with students.
Jordan Bassett:I I don't well, I'm talking like I know, but that needed some type of mental health help.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. So I have a unique background there in regards to how I got into schools. I was employed by human services in La Plata County, which is Southwest Colorado. Okay. And we had a lot of kids in crisis.
Kim Johancen:It was a rural community, and anytime kids needed to be hospitalized, they just needed to be kept safe, They would have to leave Durango. Oftentimes, they were flown to the front range in helicopters or transported by police. And because the police were doing the transports, these kids had to be handcuffed. So these are kids with significant mental health issues Yeah. That were being taken away from their supports and in such a manner as if there was something they did wrong for for having some challenges.
Kim Johancen:So the community rallied and human services, my employer, along with, San Juan Board of Cooperative Education, so special ed, the local mental health center at that time was Southwest Mental Health, and then the school district all came together and they pooled resources and created, it was really a day treatment model, that the state was mandating that we had anyway in in our county. So they decided to, all these agencies decided to put these programs in the schools so that they could have mental health on-site. I was able to, even though I wasn't employed by the school, I worked in a school. So I worked with kids, staff, and families, and we had an incredibly unique program to help families get resources, to help kids deal with challenges. They could receive therapy, they could receive tutoring.
Kim Johancen:It was pretty amazing, actually.
Will Anthony:It sounds like it, honestly. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. That's really cool. So you have the counseling background, you have some education background, and so that's why we thought it would be great to bring you in to talk about this teacher burnout. Right? I feel like you hear this word, and it's like echoing in the chambers of like teacher burnout.
Will Anthony:Go. Go.
Jordan Bassett:Like, of this big but it's a real like, I mean, it's a serious thing.
Kim Johancen:It is, and I talk to a lot of educators, I'm married to an educator, and I like to think it's really not even a matter of if you're gonna experience burnout, it's really a matter of when.
Jordan Bassett:When,
Kim Johancen:yeah. Because things get out of
Will Anthony:balance
Kim Johancen:constantly. So it's being armed with the tools. It's knowing that burnout does happen so that we can catch it quickly before it becomes something much harder to treat.
Jordan Bassett:What are some of those things that you've identified as things that stick out as those first signs
Kim Johancen:of Well, future I mean, you guys are talking about some of them. Sometimes it's trying to feel like I've got to be perfect at what I'm doing. So because I can't be perfect, I'm gonna keep failing. That leads to exhaustion. Certainly physical symptoms like stomach aches or any kind of GI or stomach issues, sleep issues for sure, colds.
Kim Johancen:Like I think a lot of teachers that I know personally will talk about, they just start to get sick when they're coming up on their breaks.
Jordan Bassett:Interesting.
Kim Johancen:Like their bodies know we're almost there. So people's bodies can finally take a breath, and as a result, a lot of people get sick. So those are some of the telltale signs. Other than that, I would say irritability or any kind of emotional, like where emotions just feel too big, overwhelming changes in how we deal with emotions. Things can seem bigger than they typically are.
Kim Johancen:I don't have as much of a bandwidth. And then the flip side, because everybody's different, would be maybe apathy, like a loss of feeling like I care about anything. I just don't care that much. I just don't feel like I care anymore. Numbing those are some of the other signs that can indicate that we're in trouble.
Jordan Bassett:Where do you think a lot of that burnout, that stress in the school environment comes from for educators?
Kim Johancen:I definitely don't think just one place. That's for today, because I talk to so many educators, today, I think it's nervous system it's a nervous system condition that is created through chronic stress, and I can certainly talk more about that. And I think it's also having to take on so many roles that teachers have to switch hats so many times throughout the day because they're being asked to do more, which really leads to exhaustion cognitively to just constantly have to switch compartments and roles, and just feeling like they're not getting done what they should be getting done. I think that takes a big toll as well. Like I don't ever feel like I'm, you know, doing what I need to do for these kids.
Kim Johancen:And I do think teachers see that kids are needing more than what their systems are able to provide. And to watch kids go through struggle, go through challenge, not just kids, families too, and not be able to help at the level that we wanna help, that absolutely causes a lot of stress.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. I want to drill into I think you said this a little bit of the burnout and things. It's it's a stress response. Like the things that we've been talking about, it's not a personal flaw necessarily. But like what I was describing, how to me or what Will you were saying about yourself, is not a flaw in who we are, but it's it's a response to the stressors.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. And that's why also I'm really passionate about many things, but self compassion is, I think is bigger than all of it. Like compassion is such a healer. And what I love talking to educators or people in caring fields about this, like we're good at compassion. We're good about caring for other people, right?
Kim Johancen:In our own families, we certainly are good at that. Not always so great about extending that same branch to ourselves. It's We're
Jordan Bassett:lot harder on ourselves.
Kim Johancen:Yes, and why do we treat other people in a way that we don't allow ourselves to be treated? And I totally forgot the question. What did you say?
Jordan Bassett:I'm sorry. I tried to just add some banter, and I derailed. We were just talking about the how, like, the burnout, and it's a stress response. Like, it's a response. It's not it's not a flaw.
Kim Johancen:Right, so the self compassion lens leads to an understanding that we're all human. And to be able to embrace our own humanity, first of all, connects us like we're all connected because we're all human. And that also allows us to let go of some perfectionism. It's hard to let go of that for some people most But if I embrace that I'm human, then I can embrace that I don't have to be perfect. And through stress, we know what happens to the brain, we know what happens to the nervous system, we go offline because that's a natural human response in the face of stress that never lets up.
Kim Johancen:We're not supposed to have stress that goes on and on and on and on and Right.
Jordan Bassett:The bear chases us for a little bit, but eventually it stops. But sometimes it feels like there's just always a bear.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. And our brain doesn't know our brain stem, and the limbic center of the brain, the midbrain as well, it doesn't know that it can't tell the difference between being chased by a bear and unrealistic demands at my place of work.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Kim Johancen:You know, or being exposed to, you know, another nervous system or brain that's in crisis. You know, our brain doesn't necessarily differentiate, between perceived threat and actual threat.
Jordan Bassett:Sure.
Kim Johancen:So therefore our system just goes offline. We're in survival mode and over time, yeah, that's not sustainable. So we start to break down. That's a human response to chronic stress.
Will Anthony:Yeah. Didn't know that. I didn't know it couldn't tell the difference between those two things. Answers a lot of questions, I guess. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:I want to kind of define or, like, look at that perceived threat. When I hear you say perceived threat, sometimes or I guess my initial response is, so you're telling me that there's there's not actually something to be worried about?
Kim Johancen:And it
Jordan Bassett:makes like, that's my first thought. I'm not sure if that's what you mean by that. But
Kim Johancen:No. Through a lens of self compassion, we actually can teach people that you're human, but not dismiss their experience. Your experience is still valid. It's just giving it a context that separates you from your experience, that there's nothing wrong with you. This is your brain on stress.
Kim Johancen:Like trauma, for example, trauma is a brain injury. So trauma impact leads to me doing things that don't feel like I should be doing these things. So what's wrong with me? Why can't I get my act together? So I appreciate the way you said that though, Jordan, so that I can make sure to tell you that's not what I meant, that your experience counts, it's valid.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. Through the lens of neurobiology, biology, we can just let you know, yes, this is your experience and there's nothing wrong with you. Yeah. This is just the impact.
Jordan Bassett:It sounds similar to something someone told me once, which was people's feelings are real, but the reason for those feelings may not be. Does that kind of fit in that?
Kim Johancen:That's kind
Jordan Bassett:of vain.
Kim Johancen:And nobody gets to tell us how to feel, not even ourselves. So, yeah, our feelings are valid. We also wanna do something with them that feels productive. Because if I'm living in my amygdala, which is the emotional center of the brain, if I'm living there, then my emotions may be driving the show, driving the car. I may be driven by emotions.
Kim Johancen:I'm not making decisions from a place of groundedness balance. I'm making decisions because my brain is telling me I'm on fire. So emotions serve a purpose, most certainly. And I actually talk about that because we need to be talking to kids about that as well. We're supposed to have emotions.
Kim Johancen:We can't avoid them, otherwise we can get overwhelmed by them. It's like dam in the river. Yeah, yeah. You know? So it's just how do we acknowledge our emotions as valid and do something with them so we're not being driven by them.
Kim Johancen:Yeah, in fact, interesting, we're talking about this. One of my favorite definitions of emotional intelligence is where we can experience emotion and acknowledge our emotions, but not be overwhelmed by them. They can be uncomfortable, but I'm still in the driver's seat, not my emotions. So I can still stay standing through that discomfort. That's a really, in my book, that's a very good definition of emotional intelligence.
Kim Johancen:And we all get knocked out of our window of tolerance. That's human.
Jordan Bassett:I just love all the things that we've been talking about and kind of defining of this teacher burnout and the signs and just bringing some light into the way human brains are and just I think it's really encouraging. I hold on to that. Like, hey. You're there's not a personality flaw. It's just it's just a response.
Kim Johancen:So why why is that anchoring for you, Jordan? Like, what is it about that that
Will Anthony:She's also gonna charge you $80. $80? More than that. No. Yeah.
Will Anthony:Bump that up. No. Just kidding.
Jordan Bassett:No. I so I just I guess from where I am like, I think specifically about me and my wife, like, we both wanna do things to the highest possible standard that we can. And so when when that stress comes over us and we feel like we just can't anymore, the first thought is we're failing our mission of doing the best that we can. And that just adds on But to really, it's our body saying, no, you've been doing great. We just can't sustain this.
Jordan Bassett:Like, we need you need rest. You just need to you need to take a step back. It's it's just a response. It's not it's not something that we've done wrong necessarily outside of not taking care of ourselves, I suppose, or slow down earlier. But, that's that's why I think it's important to me.
Kim Johancen:Well, I, and I, I like that too, just to piggyback on that because it also, with that kind of awareness, I think we also can remind ourselves that this is not the way things are all the time. This is a result of stress. This is a result of burnout. I haven't had a break. I haven't been able to rest.
Kim Johancen:So this isn't the way it's always gonna be. Okay, I know what this is. I know that I don't always feel this way. What do I need to do to move through it? It's not this permanent idea that I'm a failure.
Kim Johancen:I'm always going to feel this kind of overwhelm or underwhelm. I can do something about it. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. That's great. Well, we're gonna just pause this conversation right here for a minute. We're gonna come back to it, but we're gonna take just a short break. When we get back, we're gonna talk a little bit more about how, we've kind of defined the problem, but, I don't wanna leave it with just defining the problem but providing some solutions.
Jordan Bassett:So we'll get to those when we get back. So hang out for a minute, and we'll see you after the break. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to this episode of the Innovative Schools podcast. We have, Will and Kim Johansson with us.
Jordan Bassett:We're talking about teacher burnout. We just spent a lot of time defining, just sharing stories of times where we felt stressed and your experiences over all of your years and stuff like that. I don't want to leave our audience with just the definition of burnout or here are some of the signs. I want us to talk about things that educators, people can do. And first, I want to start with the area of a response.
Jordan Bassett:Maybe there's someone who's been listening, and they're like, maybe I am a bit over the edge. Maybe I am really I've taken on a lot of stress. Didn't think that this is, I don't know, tension in my neck or the, gastro stuff has been stress related. But now that I'm thinking about it, maybe this is kind of what's happening. So let's just get into some responses, practical some things that teachers, educators, people can do to help alleviate some of that burnout.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. And I like that. And I also think we have started talking about it right like as we're talking about our own personal struggles like catching the signs, if I'm not feeling well and that's continuing, my body's breaking down like oh okay so early intervention is great but we can catch it wherever we catch it. Like the best time to start taking care of ourselves is when we realize we have to start taking care of ourselves, And I think to doing some simple things can make a huge difference. And when I talk to people about burnout, it's almost as if there's this association that it's insurmountable or that it can't be fixed, it can't be corrected, I have to leave my I
Jordan Bassett:just have to deal with the burnout. It's gonna be here
Kim Johancen:Yeah, like maybe I'll just laugh about it and like whatever. And burnout is not a bad thing. I mean, honestly, once we recognize that we're struggling, that's the first step, right? It's just to acknowledge, I think I need something, I'm out of balance. That starts the process.
Kim Johancen:That's actually probably one of the biggest steps because without intention, we can't really change anything.
Will Anthony:Yeah.
Kim Johancen:And burnout is a nudge to get back into balance, you know, and however it happens, however we catch it, it's literally our own natural systems, biology, neurobiology telling us this isn't working, this isn't sustainable. It's not supposed to feel good when you're out of balance. Yeah. You know, it's supposed to be the nudge to do it differently. So first of all, I want to challenge that it's a bad thing or that we can't talk about it or that it means I'm a failure or whatever, some of the things we already talked about.
Kim Johancen:So the other thing that I find interesting is that, you know, this feels so heavy, so it must take a lot for me to change this. It's going to take a lot for me to overcome this, which is why a lot of people do leave their professions. In actuality, it can be small little two minute, one minute strategies. It's dosing regulation. It's not the big, oh, I'm gonna take care of myself at the end of the day.
Kim Johancen:It's we need to be dosing ourselves all day long. And teachers with the stress that they're under, I think even more so, we have to be thinking about how teachers can take care of themselves, not just in between classes even, like during a class period. Those small micro doses can make a huge difference and communicate safety to my brain and nervous system.
Jordan Bassett:What would some of those kind of doses look like in practicality?
Kim Johancen:Just taking a breath. Like quite honestly, just Like a conscious breath. Yes. A conscious breath.
Jordan Bassett:A conscious breath.
Kim Johancen:Like really filling up my lungs, breathing in through my nostrils, feeling the air leaving my body. That signals to the brain that I'm safe. Because when we're not safe, it's go time. I'm breathing shallow possibly, I'm tensed, I'm ready, I'm ready to run. So anything that signals to the brain that we're actually safe can make a huge difference in keeping us regulated, keeping us in our higher functioning brain so that we can stay grounded and keep going.
Kim Johancen:So breath is one quite honestly and I tell kids this all the time, even drinking water. Like the act of drinking water is an act of self care, but it also forces you to breathe. So that's a good one. Essential oils. I love essential oils.
Kim Johancen:I like having skills, things that we can do, and then tools that we can use. So having essential oils on the desk or in the desk drawer, of calming sense, sense that I associate with calm that might be different than what you associate with calm. Because our sense of smell is the fastest way to the amygdala, the threat center of the brain. So just a couple dots right here of lavender, eucalyptus, whatever it is that you like can make a big difference too.
Will Anthony:I'm learning so much. I didn't know that. Eucalyptus, watch the amygdala, didn't know it.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. Yeah, like little, little things.
Jordan Bassett:Well, I was just thinking I don't know. It made me think of we're talking about teacher burnout, but students have stress too. Like, do you see a pathway for some of these micro things, taking a breath, if an educator is kinda orchestrating some breathing through the whole class?
Kim Johancen:Absolutely. I think if we can model how to use these techniques with our students, with our kids, with the people around us, it can make a huge difference. So even looking around at a classroom, you know, I love, you know, teachers with how they have their classrooms just decorated. And there's so many things you can see on the walls, bright colors, affirmations. Looking around at my environment actually signals safety to the brain so I can stay regulated.
Kim Johancen:Because again, if I'm under threat, I'm looking for the nearest exit. So my vision actually becomes more narrow. So how many things can I name that are the color blue? Or what are five things I hear? Four things I see?
Kim Johancen:You know, three things I smell? Orienting to our environment opens the brain back up so I can stay in my window of tolerance.
Jordan Bassett:It's interesting. It sounds like there's a certain amount of focus. Or maybe it's diverted focus? I don't know. You're saying focusing on how many things come in that are blue seems like it takes a lot of energy to focus.
Jordan Bassett:But then it eventually opens you up to just safer or whatever.
Kim Johancen:Yeah, I think you're dipping into mindfulness. And I know a lot of schools, I love how many schools are bringing mindfulness practices into the classrooms and into their team environment. Mindfulness anchors me to this moment, and mindfulness isn't about a practice where you just clear your mind. Like mindfulness is about doing things mindfully. So anything I'm doing, I'm devoting my attention to.
Kim Johancen:So if I'm anchoring to this room, to how it feels to be sitting in this chair, to being with you, to looking around at my environment, to be fully present, that's mindfulness. So we can do that in our classrooms, we can do that walking. I like that everybody loves walking their dogs, that's good, dogs should be walked.
Jordan Bassett:Sure, yeah.
Kim Johancen:I will say I recommend sometimes for folks to leave their dogs at home and just just go on a walk and feel the sun on your shoulders or notice the the trees, like listen to the bird songs.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. Not not listening to a podcast. No. Or
Kim Johancen:Right. Maybe this one.
Will Anthony:Don't Maybe this podcast. Maybe this one. No.
Jordan Bassett:But I mean, you're you're right. Like, I like to run. That's one of the things that I do, sometimes. And typically, I listen to music. But sometimes, I'm like, I need to just hear the wind in the trees.
Jordan Bassett:Just focus on the sound of my shoes hitting hitting the pavement or the way the air feels on my skin. And those those types of things, that that mindfulness thing. So going on a walk, but not distracting yourself by consuming something, but being aware is what you're
Kim Johancen:kinda saying. Yeah. And with all the noise, technology, there's so much noise and particularly probably now more than ever, right?
Will Anthony:There you go.
Kim Johancen:There's so much noise and to have a mindful moment that I can just be focused on being present is incredibly corrective. If you really practice mindfulness, a lot of people will talk about also experiencing deeper gratitude, you know, because I'm grateful for this moment. I'm not worried about the past. I'm not sitting here worried about the future. I'm fully here.
Kim Johancen:I'm connected. Burnout is about disconnection. Connection goes out the window because we're not connected to ourselves. I can't really be connected to other people. So to be able to be really here allows me to start appreciating the small things that maybe I would have missed.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah.
Kim Johancen:So people will oftentimes talk about deeper gratitude when they're able to practice doing things mindfully.
Jordan Bassett:So we have some kind of you call it micro doses of breath, drinking water, a little bit. I don't know what you classify this as, but some mindfulness. We talked walks a little bit. But what are some of those other things that maybe are bigger than micro I don't know what you would call them. I just wanna call them macro doses, but I don't know if that's
Kim Johancen:that's right. I can't believe that macro doses are. Like,
Jordan Bassett:you have these little things to help throughout the whole day, but I'm I'm assuming there's bigger things too to to do.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. Mean the small things definitely add up, right? But beyond that movement, you talk about being a runner, movement helps move chronic stress, cortisol out of the body. And it doesn't have to be running. Doesn't have to It be major can be dance.
Kim Johancen:It can be taking a gentle walk. It can be just gentle stretching, like yoga, for example. And I know a lot of teachers are talking about doing more yoga with their students. And there's many benefits to yoga and certainly to combat burnout. I appreciate how yoga is coming into the schools more and more as well.
Kim Johancen:So any kind of movement, and it can also be anything that's repetitive or rhythmic. So this could be drumming, this could be knitting, anything I'm doing with my hands, vibrating the vocal cords, so singing, humming. So I think a lot of people know people that are just walking around, they're humming all the time. That resets the nervous system because it helps calm the brainstem. It helps me stay regulated.
Kim Johancen:Laughter is one of my favorites. But I'm talking like deep belly laughter, the kind of where your stomach like hurts.
Jordan Bassett:Hurt your stomach, your cheeks.
Kim Johancen:Yes.
Jordan Bassett:You're just the next day you're sore.
Kim Johancen:Yes, exactly. Like that's the best. That's the best, right? So laughter is another one that can help reset the vagus nerve. Yeah, so there's a lot of different things that we can be doing.
Kim Johancen:Beyond that, I talk a lot about values now when it comes to burnout, which I don't know if we always think about in relation to burnout, but being in touch with our highest values, making sure we're doing things daily in line with our highest values, that actually pulls us out of the emotional center of the brain because it's exciting. It feels good to do things that I'm excited about. Nobody has to motivate me to do things that are in line with my highest values. So being intentional about making sure our behavior lines up with whatever those values are is also really important.
Jordan Bassett:You're talking about singing, drumming, and things like that. I found very recently I love listening to podcasts. I mean, we do the podcast. So I feel like I listen to podcasts. And not bad podcasts, but I kind of let listening to music fall away.
Jordan Bassett:And I was driving to work or whatever. I was always listening to something. Some cut type of podcast. Whether that was about, you know, my favorite sports team or just two guys just talking about life, which I enjoy or whatever, things like that. But I forgot how much just listening to music like, in the car, singing as loud as I can or whatever, changed my whole, like, kinda attitude for the day.
Jordan Bassett:Not that the podcasts were bad. And I think that's the point I wanna make here is that there's things that I would say that are not they're not bad things. Like, they're good things. But doing those little listening to music, singing, drumming, that repetitive movement, I noticed in myself how changing and saying, Okay, I'm going to listen to music on the way to work today, not whatever podcast, started to change my not outlook. That sounds a little dramatic.
Jordan Bassett:But just it changed my whole attitude, I guess, is the way to put that.
Kim Johancen:Well, and I think you're also dipping into being aware of how different things we're doing affects how we feel. So paying attention to the little things, to the micro or the macro things that we're doing, noticing how it makes me feel, like you talk about running. That's a sign we're on the right track. So being intentional about catching how we feel before and after we try some different things or do different things even organically, just busting out slump.
Jordan Bassett:Because everyone's different.
Kim Johancen:Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:I I wanna make that point. I'm sure everyone knows that, but I think it's a good reminder is that any of the things that you're saying now, I enjoy running. Do you like running, Will? No. Yeah.
Jordan Bassett:It's not gonna help
Kim Johancen:him that much. You even hesitate. Nope. Nope. I do not.
Jordan Bassett:And that's okay.
Will Anthony:I love a good stroll, though.
Kim Johancen:A good? Sure.
Jordan Bassett:A walk? Yeah. You do like to stroll. That's true.
Will Anthony:I love a good stroll.
Jordan Bassett:But we're all different. Like, we all had different stories coming in of those stressful moments and all of our the little things that each one of us do to to help alleviate in that stress. It's all gonna be different. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is it okay to recommend to try until you find the thing that helps?
Kim Johancen:Yeah. And it also means opening up conversations with other people about burnout. So talking about what do you do to take care of yourself? You know, what do you find that works for you? Cause chances are if it works for somebody else, it might work for you.
Kim Johancen:But being able to collect ideas and I love a good group think, being able to pool ideas on teams, in schools, at home with our families or our friends, you know, we can come up with a pretty big toolbox that way. So yes, absolutely giving ourselves permission to try new things. And one of the caveats here of what we're talking about would also be expect discomfort if you haven't tried these things. Like a lot of people will say, well, I tried it a couple times and it didn't work. Well, first of all, it's gonna take a minute to, create a new habit.
Kim Johancen:We're talking about a self care habit, including a self compassion habit, which I think self compassion is even bigger than self care. So yes, try new things, but don't overwhelm yourself. Just try maybe one or two things today, see how it goes. Maybe try one or two things tomorrow, you know. Think about dosing.
Kim Johancen:How will I dose myself a couple times today with some regulation? You know, it's setting up goals that are gonna help us be successful. And that 1%, like those micro changes as I'm creating new habits, it adds up. It matters. Over time, it can make a big difference.
Jordan Bassett:Yeah. And we've of covered this, but I just want to kind of draw a line in the sand of saying we started this part of the podcast talking about kind of responsive things, to talk about preventative things, which are many of the things we talk about. Is that the same things on both sides?
Kim Johancen:Yeah. I would say that a lot of things we're talking about are also preventative, but we can take it a step further because you're also talking about resiliency. Resiliency is huge. Like we know that for example vicarious trauma can happen, we also know vicarious resilience can happen. So folks who are regulated, we know mirrored neurons are huge, but we also now know mirrored nervous systems are huge.
Kim Johancen:So if everybody's taking care of themselves in a classroom or in a school, the adults are practicing self care ongoing, that's gonna have a ripple effect because other nervous systems are gonna be impacted by mine, not always the other way around. Lot of teachers are around a lot of dysregulated offline nervous systems all So day we always start with us. So resiliency, you know, how do we create resiliency? We accept that stress is a part of resilience because resilience happens through stress. So it's not resilience and then stress, like eustress, which is the good stress, not distress, eustress.
Kim Johancen:Eustress? Eustress, EU stress. Okay. So eustress is stress that actually helps clean the brain. It helps with focus.
Kim Johancen:It helps me widen vagal tone.
Jordan Bassett:Is that like short term stress of like deadlines and things? Is that what you're talking It can be. Okay.
Kim Johancen:Yeah, it can be.
Jordan Bassett:I'm just trying to put it into perspective
Kim Johancen:It's of what anything that's challenging but not overwhelming.
Jordan Bassett:Sure. Okay. So
Kim Johancen:we wanna challenge students, right, so that they don't end up feeling apathetic, like they don't care, for example. Like, want challenges that excite us and that help us grow as human beings.
Jordan Bassett:Is it is it similar to I I had this image just came in my head of, like, putting just a little more weight on the bar to build your muscle.
Kim Johancen:That's a good metaphor. To where you can't Where you're screaming for help?
Jordan Bassett:Yes.
Kim Johancen:Yes. Yes. Yes. It's that.
Jordan Bassett:Okay. Okay. So those those little things. Because I always heard that growing up, you know, stress can help you achieve goals. And I feel like that I don't know.
Jordan Bassett:I feel like that's not said as much anymore with all the this the conversation around stress and stuff. But, I if I'm hearing you correctly, this you stress Mhmm. Is kind of that that little bit of stress that kind of motivates or pushes and helps you grow resilience and stuff like that. Right?
Kim Johancen:Like, Yeah. We actually mean it.
Jordan Bassett:Okay. Okay.
Kim Johancen:And it just occurs to me as you're talking, you know, we talk a lot about how there's more stress now than in past generations, and and certainly there's a lot of global trauma happening. And I think it's a little more complicated than that because if we're not teaching kids, new generations on how to have healthy stress, then we're gonna have generations of kids who don't think they can handle stress. So we're talking about, oh, there's so much more stress. There's also a much bigger inability to deal
Jordan Bassett:with and being able to.
Kim Johancen:So things that yeah. So things that might, you know, at one point in time, sure, would have been a little stressful, it would have gotten over it, now may be overwhelming.
Will Anthony:You said it's eustress? Eustress. Eustress? Okay. I just it kinda reminded me when we started talking, before we started recording, you were asking me what my job is here at Accutrain, and I was saying that in my description at the bottom, it says whatever Jordan asked me to do, But there's
Kim Johancen:there's multiple literally said that, by the way. He did say that.
Will Anthony:Yeah. I know. Said that. There was multiple steps to it, and I was saying that, yeah, I think it's it's good for me because it, can help build my own mental resilience, and I'm learning all these different skills and different things because I'm facilitating and teaching and learning and designing of all these different things.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. You don't get bored. That's for sure. I don't
Will Anthony:get bored. That's true.
Kim Johancen:Jordan has. He's doing a ton.
Jordan Bassett:A lot of things.
Will Anthony:There's always something. No. I'm just kidding.
Jordan Bassett:I have, one last question here, which I really like. Good job writing the questions. Which is just so this one is for people and educators that are already on the path kind of of recovery. Is that the right phrasing Yeah. To Okay, cool.
Jordan Bassett:First, wanted to establish that. What are signs that healing or progress is taking place? I feel like ending on this kind of encouragement of, hey, if you're seeing these things, you're doing a good job. Keep going.
Kim Johancen:Yeah, I love that. The first thing that pops up for me is boundaries. So when people are able to say no more, they're being more thoughtful about their yeses. And for educators, that's hard to do because they're being asked to do more and more and more. So to be able to find those places and to have schools support boundaries, an easy way that a school system can help a educator have boundaries or respect their boundaries is to not expect people to email after hours or on weekends, to not be available.
Kim Johancen:You are off the clock. That's an easy boundary that schools can help support. So boundaries is one thing, being able to say no, not taking on everything. Other signs of progress would be a deeper sense of gratitude. Most people will tell me after they get through some kind of hard challenging experience, they'll find the gratitude in it.
Kim Johancen:Like, oh my gosh, thank God that happened because now I'm doing this instead. Or I'm glad that relationship blew up because that was devastating, but now I'm with my partner who is the love of my life. Going through burnout and what we're all facing in our own way in different levels, to be able to say I got through that. I'm more resilient as a result. I've survived things I never thought I could.
Kim Johancen:I thought I would, like, blow away in the wind if some of these things ever happened, but here I still am. So that's resilience. And when we start to notice, wow, I'm not there anymore. I'm seeing the beauty again. I'm seeing the vibrant colors.
Kim Johancen:It's not all muted anymore.
Jordan Bassett:Those
Kim Johancen:are all great signs that we're on the right track. And we're more connected to ourselves and to other people.
Will Anthony:That's so special that you're able to be in that position. That's really awesome.
Kim Johancen:Thanks, Will. Yeah, I think so too.
Jordan Bassett:That's awesome. Kim, I have loved having this conversation.
Kim Johancen:Well, thank you for having me, you guys.
Jordan Bassett:I'm going be honest, I was a little worried when we were like, hey, we're going do this. I like, I just really don't want to be really heavy. But I feel like we've really been able to explore a lot of different aspects of burnout and get some definitions and some identifiers as well as like things. And so I I thank you for coming and talking. You well, I'm glad you're here.
Will Anthony:Thanks. Me too, honestly. I really love being a part of these episodes. I mean, know I do a lot of the behind the scenes stuff, but there's there's really nothing that nothing is the same as being a part of it and being engaged what we're talking about. So I really find a lot of value in it.
Kim Johancen:Well, thank you, Will, and thanks for giving me an opportunity to talk about this stuff because I think it's important.
Will Anthony:Of course.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. Absolutely.
Will Anthony:Thanks for being here. Thanks, Cam.
Kim Johancen:Yeah. Thanks, guys. It was good.
Jordan Bassett:We want to thank everyone who is listening or watching this podcast. We hope that if you are experiencing burnout or stressors, maybe you started to identify some stuff that something in this episode sparked something in you to keep going, but also take some time. And maybe some of those micro doses or some of those, other strategies and things to help alleviate some of that stress. Before we let you guys go, I just wanna remind you that stress, it's a response. It's a human response.
Jordan Bassett:It means that you're normal. It means that you your body's just overwhelmed, and it's trying to get you to slow down, and so that you can do the things that you need to do and things that you wanna do. So it's normal. That's one of the big things I want everyone to walk away with.
Will Anthony:And you're not alone. Yes. Yes. You're not alone. Please open up.
Will Anthony:Please share those things with with others around you in your school, even with your family, with your spouse. You're not the only one going through this. You're absolutely not.
Jordan Bassett:Yep. So thank you guys for listening, and we'll see you on the next episode.
Will Anthony:See you.