On this episode of the Innovative Schools Podcast, we have Connie Hamilton and we're discussing how to make sure that the students are doing the problem solving and not you. Come on. Let's learn together. Hey, educators. Welcome to the Innovative Schools Podcast.
Jordan:Jordan and Oh, Will on this yeah. Yeah. That's good. I'm excited. We're several episodes in this season.
Jordan:I've really enjoyed it so far.
Will:Season four. Yeah, dude. I didn't know if we'd make it this far, but I'm happy we did.
Jordan:I that sounds a little not hopeful.
Will:I mean, I was on the side of the doing the podcast, you know, but there was I think it's just a lot of good work that we've been doing. But I'm really happy that we've been able to keep pushing this far and kinda continue with it.
Jordan:Yeah. For sure. For sure. And trying to help educators as much as we can.
Will:Absolutely. Yeah.
Jordan:Yeah. Talking to our different experts and things. If you remember I don't remember actually exactly how many, but episodes back. But earlier this season, we had doctor John Almarone on, and we were talking about, like, struggle and the difference between challenging challenges and struggling. Mhmm.
Jordan:This episode, we're gonna kinda continue that conversation in a way, I would say. You don't have to listeners, you don't have to have watched that. I encourage you to, but you don't have to have listened or watched that episode.
Will:Yeah.
Jordan:But I remember coming out of that conversation thinking about, like, the time specifically with my kids, like, watching my kids, like, wrestle with a problem or something Yeah. And being kinda like, when do I jump in? Yeah. When should I do it for them? Like, oh, I could help them so much right now.
Jordan:And I'm sure, like, our educators that are listening had a similar experience. Maybe not with their own kids, but they're you know, they may have come out of that conversation. Think about that. But I you know, it's that tension of when do you jump in or how do you jump in to help a student. Mhmm.
Jordan:I remember being in school and feeling a little helpless. Like, I not a good speller. That's not one of my strong suits. And I'd, like, ask teachers, like, how do I spell something? Yeah.
Jordan:And what was this response that they always gave?
Will:Sound it out.
Jordan:Sound it out? So you got sound it out or look it up in the dictionary? And I thought to myself, if I don't know how to spell it, how How would I find it
Will:in the dictionary?
Jordan:Find it in the dictionary? Yeah. But I was like, please just help me. Like, just just tell me. But also if they would've just told me, I would've just, like, written it down and, like, not thought about it.
Jordan:Yeah. So but, like, that was my experience to some of the struggle and stuff. And that was kind of some of the things that came into my brain as we're talking about talking to to doctor John Almaroade. But we don't need to sit on that episode. Go listen to it if you haven't.
Jordan:But we have a guest here today who is gonna help us, like, walk through some of that, talk a little bit more about it, and find some practical stuff. She's actually someone that's been to our Innovative Schools Summits Mhmm. Before. Yeah. Small plug.
Jordan:We have another one coming up in December in San Antonio. Innovativeschoolssummit.com. Go check that out. She's coming. But she's gonna talk to us a little bit about kinda continuing that conversation and talking about that when you jump in and stuff.
Jordan:And so I won't take up any more time hesitating on announcing who this is. But we have Connie Hamilton with us. Hey, Connie. How are you doing? Hey.
Connie Hamilton:Hi. How are you?
Jordan:We're great. Did you ever have experiences like that in school? Like Oh, yeah. When, like, a teacher would be like, just go look it up. And you're like, well, I don't even know where to start.
Jordan:Did you have anything like that happen to you? Both as
Connie Hamilton:a And I was always a perfectionist. So even if I thought it was mostly right, I still wanted the teacher to affirm like, yes, Connie, that's that's worth an A. You're not gonna get an A minus. You're good. Like, I still wanted that.
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I just always felt like I couldn't figure it out myself. But, Connie, you speak all over the country to educators.
Jordan:Maybe international. I actually didn't do that research. Have you done anything outside of the country?
Connie Hamilton:Yes. Yes. I've been to Canada, and I'm going to Singapore soon. I've done a few things remotely. Yeah.
Connie Hamilton:Singapore this spring.
Jordan:That's awesome. So speaking to educators on all types of different subjects and things, can you give us the short kind of Twitter version of your career with education and everything like that?
Connie Hamilton:Yes. So I've been a teacher at the elementary and secondary level administration, both elementary and secondary level. And then I was at the curriculum level. When I moved into administration, I missed teaching. And I worked in a school district that had not a lot of a lot of funds.
Connie Hamilton:So I did a lot of PD. And once I started doing PD in my own school district kind of scratched that itch to teach again. Yeah. Now that's my career and I get to do it all the time.
Jordan:You know what? I love how many of our guests kind of have that same path of in the school kind of did different things, maybe into administration. And then they just love teaching. Mhmm. And they've kind of moved into to teaching teachers.
Jordan:And I I love that. Truthfully, I do. It is something and that's something we do at the the summits as well. Yeah. Like, that Connie's gonna be at.
Jordan:But okay. So let's talk a little bit. Before the podcast, we talked a little bit. And you said yourself that you listened to Jon Elm Road's episode. And you're like, you know, this is really kind of a continuation of that conversation.
Jordan:So first, could you take a minute and let's kind of define what we're talking about? What the how we're what the conversation was and what how we're going to be continuing it today?
Connie Hamilton:Yeah, so the conversation is really about providing challenges for learners and then watching to see how they approach those challenges. So when the challenge gets to a threshold where a learner's like, I can't do this anymore, I don't know what to do, and they want to shut down, then that's kind of where the struggle kicks in. And then we're looking at how can we flip that challenge so that the struggle doesn't become a quit point, but yet it turns into being more productive so that they can persevere and make their way through it and then continue on to have success with that challenge.
Jordan:Gotcha. So what and like the things that you've done, what is kind of that key that turns a struggle or a challenge from a, what you said, a quit point to, I guess, a learning I can't remember if you gave a name to that other side, but the quick the quit point or the opposite? Yeah.
Connie Hamilton:Yeah. So it really is it's a variety of things. It's do they have the right resources? Do they have the confidence? Do they have enough options try out?
Connie Hamilton:Do they have a view of what success looks like? It's a variety of things that can cause learners to either continue and persevere and be like, No, no, no, don't help me. I want to figure this out by myself. I mean, even though you've had some of those experiences with spelling, you probably have had other experiences where someone's like, Hey, can you figure this out? And you're like, I accept the challenge.
Connie Hamilton:And then they're like, Do you want a hint? You're thinking No, no, no. Right? That's the mindset that we want to see more and more often of the No, I can do it. I can, I can solve this?
Connie Hamilton:But that comes from having multiple experiences with success. I've done this before, therefore I know I can do it again. Versus I've never done this before, and therefore I don't think I can do it the first time. That's one sort of scenario. So that gives into the experiences that they have, just confidence, their esteem, how they feel about themselves as learners.
Connie Hamilton:And then probably the biggest thing is their ability to step away from whatever it is that they're actually learning in the moment. So say they're learning about erosion, and they don't understand erosion, they get tied up in I don't get all of this science stuff, I don't know the vocabulary. If they can step out of the actual learning purpose, and step away and say, What do learners do? What can I do when I feel stuck in the challenge? And those things are universal.
Connie Hamilton:It's not tied to erosion. Those are things you can do at any point when you're facing a challenge and you're feeling like, I give up, I'm done. So those are the things that we need to bring to attention and sometimes explicitly teach students to do so that they can just step away, be more metacognitive about their thinking, and then apply what they discovered in that metacognitive motion moment back into the challenge that they're facing.
Jordan:It sounds like to me what you're talking about is to kind of summarize what you're just saying, and let me know if I'm on the right track, is that is to teach them skills beyond content, but skills into how do I find the answer? What tools do I have at my disposal to solve this problem that I'm facing? And that goes beyond the one subject that they may be in for that. But into all their subjects and beyond probably school. Is that kind of what you're you're saying Yes.
Connie Hamilton:Some districts call them learner dispositions, other of a learner. There are often exit goals that they have upon graduation. We want competent communicators and critical thinkers and those types of skills that we want and anticipate, but we don't always explicitly teach, support, and maybe most importantly, trigger in students in the moments when they need it.
Jordan:Sure. I working with some educators at summits and some of the former educators through the podcast and things, I always feel that, you know, teachers, they wanna help. They are they wanna see students succeed. At least the good teachers. The good teachers wanna see students succeed.
Jordan:Maybe we've all experienced a teacher, a coworker, or a teacher when we were in school that felt like, I'm not sure you want me to succeed or want a student to succeed. But I'd say, for the most part that Yeah. Good educators want to see students succeed. But I can see that as being something challenging in this kind of arena, this topic that we're talking about. Because what I might see as success or helping a student could be doing it for them, which ultimately is not helping them.
Jordan:Right? Is that I feel like that's a part of this conversation as well.
Connie Hamilton:A 100%.
Jordan:Where all that works together?
Connie Hamilton:Both angles of what you're speaking to. So the first is how do we define help? Is help? How do we get students to finish this assignment to complete this assignment to get the right answer to get 100% on this task. If that's the mindset of both the learner, help me finish this, help me get done, and the teacher, how I'm going to help you to be done with this and, you know, so I can move on with the next piece because we are crammed for time very often in our lessons, then if the end goal of help is completion, then that's what we're going to coach around.
Connie Hamilton:How do I hurry up and get kids through this? And
Jordan:Right, teachers that goal know is just to meet the deadline and not actually learn the material. That's kind of what you're talking about here.
Connie Hamilton:Exactly. And if that's the goal, you'll take shortcuts, you'll give hints, you'll do all of the things to skip over the part that makes learning stick the most, which is the struggle, the challenge. That's the part where, you know, we say you learn from mistakes. And if we avoid mistakes, so we see a student who's doing something wrong in a math problem, we go, Oh, oh, oh, wait, wait, go back and fix that. That one right there.
Connie Hamilton:They avoid the mistake and so therefore they never have the opportunity to learn from it. So we see things before they do. And oftentimes, A, we prevent the mistake in the first place or we intervene, point out the mistake, tell them how to fix it, and then they go on and do the part that they already knew how to do so they get less practice with the part that's actually challenging. So like you were talking about the spelling piece in a piece of writing. So if we're really learning about how to write cohesive paragraphs that have an introduction and supporting details, if you ask me, how do I spell rhinoceros?
Connie Hamilton:I'm just going to tell you because that's not the learning goal. Want you to work through the part that is about how do you write a topic sentence and supporting details and not get bogged down with all of the things that are associated with writing. Otherwise, we focus on the wrong thing, and then we don't learn anything. So if I'm constantly sending you to the to the dictionary to go look up something, then you're not really learning how to write a cohesive paragraph.
Jordan:Right. Yeah. I I see that, like, to where I could now I'm focusing more on how to spell rhinoceros and missing the learning objectives of Mhmm. Coherent writing or, you know, introductory and all paragraph structure and all that that stuff.
Will:You're, like, upset maybe in that situation too. And you're like, I don't wanna go figure out how to spell ranks. No. That's what I'm saying. You're, like, mad about it too now.
Will:Yeah. I did say that. Or you
Jordan:just get so off on a trail of making sure every word is spelling. Maybe you don't even finish the assignment. Yeah. Is I'm thinking through all these different things. It's really opening my eyes to my own daughter right now.
Jordan:I feel like looking at her and, like, seeing these different things. But I think, you know, in what you were just explaining with, like, a a math question going through, you're right. Like, when I'm trying to help my daughter with schoolwork, I see the mistakes happen in real time. So I guess my question is is when I see her making that math mistake, what do what's the best thing for me to do? I I feel like you just said, like, if you point it out right there and don't let them make the mistake, there's kind of an issue.
Jordan:But also, I feel like I need to address it on some level. So what don't do it from a parent standpoint. Do it from a teacher teacher standpoint of like what to do when as adults we see that happen.
Connie Hamilton:Yeah. And ideally, it should be similar. Right? Like how we how we support people who are learning something new or learning something that is challenging to them would be the same if you're a coach, if you're a parent, if you're a teacher, it all works no matter what your role is. So in that case, if you see a mistake in math or if you're a coach and you see somebody, maybe they're throwing the ball and they don't their stance isn't just correct, you let them go through it and say, Okay, so did the ball go where you wanted it to go?
Connie Hamilton:No, it didn't. So then what might be the problem? What are the ways that we can correct that? What do we know about what good formation of throwing the ball to a target place? What do we already know about that?
Connie Hamilton:So a lot of times students can verbalize before they can apply. So if we bring them back to verbalizing what it is that they know, then you can walk through a whole cognitive sequence of, Well, did you do that? What part did you miss? What part should we check? What part is the hardest for you?
Connie Hamilton:Let's go back and check that piece of it. And so allowing them and let's we'll use the ball example. So let's say we know that it's the stance, they don't have their feet in the right place. And they say, Well, you're supposed to release the ball at such and such a point. Okay, let's try that.
Connie Hamilton:Let's say if you release the ball at a different point, let's see if it goes where it's supposed to go. Does it? No. All right. What else can we try?
Connie Hamilton:So this is the part where the struggle feels productive to us if we look at it from a standpoint of students are still identifying things that could help them. They're trying them and ruling them out, and then going back to, Okay, what's the next thing I can try? Try it, rule it out. What's the next thing I can try? That's productive.
Connie Hamilton:If we want to just be like, the first thing you try is the thing that is going to fix it, then we're going to skip over all of those opportunities for students to say, Yeah, I tried to release the ball at a different time and that didn't work. Eventually, I figured out that it is my stance. So the next time the ball doesn't go where I want it to go, then I'm more likely to try the stance first, because I now know that's what worked after thinking it through the whole time versus my coach or my teacher saying, Hey, change where your feet are. Look at your feet. Your feet are in the wrong place.
Connie Hamilton:Okay, I can comply with that. Now I'm just doing what you told me. But I haven't developed the skill of being able to tell myself what I need to do in order to fix it. And that's the metacognitive perspective. What do you know?
Connie Hamilton:What have you tried? Where can you go? Where have you seen this successful before? What do you know didn't work? All of those things are transferable no matter what the topic is.
Connie Hamilton:And that's where we establish learner dispositions or mindsets of being a learner. How do I learn anything?
Jordan:Can can we go as far as saying that when a student is stepping through those different things, saying, maybe it's my hand my arm position or where I release the ball, that they're also now not just learning where their feet need to be, but they've learned a bit more about how it feels or if they release at this point, this is where the ball goes. Mhmm. And so now they're not just learning that the thing to fix that one piece, but they're getting more information about what other things do within that. So I guess in a math, you know, to take it I love that we brought coaches into this. I feel like a lot of times when we're doing stuff with educators and stuff, we talk a lot about classroom and principals, but coaches and cafeteria and everyone, we we love all of the adults in the education space.
Jordan:But working through the math, you know, okay. Well, I didn't I'm working on algebra and I divided here. So what happens if I multiply here? Now I get I learn a little bit about multiplication. Oh, that wasn't right.
Jordan:What if I'm supposed to do this other function here? Oh, I've learned how that works. So it to me, it feels that, like, this is not just about helping them get to the correct answer for that problem that they're working on, but also learning a little bit more about the other aspects of the subject because they have to go through these different steps.
Connie Hamilton:Mhmm. And the key is using the math example and using your spelling example. The key is also in the questioning. So if we tell a student go look it up in the dictionary or sound it out, or we tell a student to add here or combine like terms here, they aren't approaching or trying to solve the problem that they're facing. We're the ones who solve the problem, and they just do the solution.
Connie Hamilton:And so instead of giving them the solution that we know is going to take them over the hump, we can create that sense of ownership within the students to say, Yeah, this is a tricky part. So what are your options? What could you do? What resources do you have available to you? What strategies do you know that we can try?
Connie Hamilton:Now we're triggering them to think like a learner and to try to recognize the things that teachers can't turn off. We're constantly assessing what is a student doing right? What is a student not doing right? And what does that tell us about what they understand or what they don't understand? But we don't often put students in that same mindset.
Connie Hamilton:And that's what you're questioning around. So what are you going to do about it? Like, how can we help this? Where are going to begin? And I can be in there with it with you side by side, but not necessarily as the person who's just going to hand it over to you.
Jordan:Yeah. I wanna do a little thought experiment with our listeners or just to think about this because I always feel like it's it's helpful for us to talk about stuff like this and and put it in. But to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who's learning and try and see this in maybe a situation that that us adults are in sometimes, it makes me think about I want our listeners to to take a minute and to think about maybe a time that you're trying to figure something out and you couldn't. And what steps you went through, I think about kinda recently, I've been trying to learn to cook more, cook at home, and cook different things. And I find myself, you know, make spaghetti.
Jordan:And I make spaghetti and at the end, I'm like, it's good, but I feel like it's missing something. And I feel like what you're talking about is I start to walk through those same things. What do I think is missing? I wonder. Maybe I need to put a little bit more salt or maybe a little bit more oregano or maybe I need to use a different kind of tomato.
Jordan:And then I do the whole spaghetti again and I get a result. But now I've learned what happens when I put a little more tomato or a little less salt or whatever to food. And now I've learned that aspect. It's not quite where I want it, so I do it again. And I'm trying to figure out the right thing.
Jordan:And so I I wanna encourage our listeners to take a minute and think maybe it's cooking, maybe it's gardening
Connie Hamilton:or Technology.
Jordan:Drawing or technology or something that you have it's a hobby, maybe something that you've enjoyed that if you think back to the way beginning, all the things that you didn't know, but you worked through this the kind of challenging moments, the challenges and try different things. I feel like that's the same as what we need to encourage our students to do with whatever it is that they're learning. Don't rob them of the joy of discovery while they're working through whatever challenge. Mhmm. I just wanna encourage our because that's what I'm picking up from you, Connie.
Jordan:And that's I I I think it's important for us to think back to when we were learning something and try and put into the same shoes to have some some of that compassion and empathy for our students in that way.
Connie Hamilton:Right. And if as you're cooking your spaghetti, if you if you decide, yes, it's the salt that is needed, you're not going to put a cup of salt in. You're going to put a sprinkle of salt, and then you're going to taste it, and then another sprinkle. Right? If you put too much salt in, you can't ever take it back.
Connie Hamilton:And so when we think about how we help students, if we think about that salt analogy as well, if you put a cup of help on a student that needs support, you can never take it back. But if you give them like, you taste it and see what you think it needs, oh, and then you're thinking, Okay, I'm just going to give just a tiny bit of salt. I know it might need more help than what I just gave. But if we're always giving less help than we could, that means we're leaving the door open for students to help themselves and meet us wherever that halfway point is. If we don't know where it is, it's definitely not at the end where we do it all.
Connie Hamilton:And it may not be at the very beginning where they do it all. But we want to take the smallest steps of support so that they can jump in whenever we've scaffolded the least amount.
Jordan:Gotcha. The goal is to not over help or over scaffold. Because you can't
Connie Hamilton:take it back. You can always add more help. You can't remove it.
Jordan:It's like the toothpaste. Can't put it back in the tube.
Connie Hamilton:Yeah, you can. I can put toothpaste back in toothbrush.
Jordan:Oh, goodness. Okay. That's a different Just put
Connie Hamilton:bare pocket and suck it out.
Jordan:Okay.
Will:Yeah. It's yeah. I I never managed to. But, you know, every morning you just hear a dang it from the bathroom.
Jordan:Too much. Yeah. Know? You know? I guess I'm rushing twice as long today.
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah.
Will:I'll just leave it on the mirror and be like, that's for tonight. Oh.
Jordan:Yeah. Alright. Gosh. That's so good. Alright.
Jordan:Anyway, enough toothpaste.
Connie Hamilton:Thanks for sharing, Will.
Jordan:Yeah. Yeah. I would
Will:say, as we're talking about this, I think I just had this image in my head of well, there's this video I saw of this father talking their son through how to pour a drink into their cup. But this is still a child in a diaper age. And it's it's not a big spout they're pouring. But as they're starting to pour, they're starting to spill and it like missed the cup because they can barely hold it up. And I just remember in the video, the father being like, you know, that's okay.
Will:Let's not focus on that. Just keep going. Keep keep pouring. Yep, you're doing good. And it's like spilling all over and creating like such a big mess.
Will:But then as the cup actually fills up, they're they're done. He's like, that's great. Perfect.
Jordan:Great
Will:job. And then it cuts to doing it later. And the kid is spilling less and less and less and less as it kind of just keeps going forward. So I just that just came to my head, that funny video I saw just kind of came to my head as you were talking about kind of helping to build this scaffolding of, you know, here's, let's work through like these resources that I'm giving you and helping you with using these tools. Okay, let's build upon it.
Will:And then maybe even the next time you're still having this issue. Okay, we found what works last time. Let's build upon that. Let's keep increasing this muscle in this path that kind of helps to continue forward. So I just kind of came to my head as we were talking about that a little That bit
Connie Hamilton:kid got there, but it was messy. Yeah, each time it just got a little cleaner and a little cleaner. So there was success, but the success could just be a little sharper. But we don't deny that kid that first opportunity of success, no matter how messy it is to get there.
Jordan:Yeah. Exactly. For sure. Mhmm. So I wanna start to turn our conversation just a little bit towards some of the practical ways to accomplish this building, just the right amount of scaffolding, when to jump in, how to let I'm gonna say how to let them face challenges well.
Jordan:And I I think you have a handful, if not more, kind of things, little things and stuff to do. I have a list of about four. And I'd like to just kind of walk through those, how they work, and talk just a little bit about them. Cool? Sounds good?
Connie Hamilton:Yeah. Sounds good.
Jordan:Sweet. So what I have here is ask what have you tried? And I think we have talked about that a little bit. But can we kind of wrap that up into a nice little package of what that looks like? What you mean by that?
Jordan:Yes.
Connie Hamilton:So when kids raise their hand and they say, you know, I need help. And you say, what what do you need help with? And they say all of it, right? Then we come back with what have you tried? And that is really telling.
Connie Hamilton:So not only does that kick them into that metacognitive thinking like a learner mode, but it also gives you some information. Now I know I didn't try anything. I faced a challenge. I thought it was hard and my hand went up. That's one kind of learner.
Connie Hamilton:But if you say, What have you tried? And the student says, I tried this, I tried this, I tried this, I tried this. Now we know that they have already initiated some things, we can go back to some of those to say, Did it work? Did it not work? How do you know?
Connie Hamilton:Blah, blah, blah. So when you start with what have you tried? It tells you, gives you a glimpse of what happened before you got there instead of just assuming they haven't tried anything or they have already tried everything and now you're just there to save them. It turns the conversation over to them and puts them in the driver's seat to communicate, hey, this is your role as a learner and that you own this, not me. And so what have you done so far?
Jordan:Got it. I also want I wanna challenge our our listeners again to ask that of themselves when they're working with a a student that maybe isn't quite getting there, they're having some troubles, is to ask yourself, okay, what have I tried with this student? And what was the success? What it what started to work? What didn't?
Jordan:I think looking at some of these, it probably is good for both adults, you know, for you for us to use in our our lives and also to build into our our students. So I love that. The what have you tried giving that kind of you're asking questions. Listeners of the podcast know I love Ted Lasso. So be curious, not judgmental.
Jordan:You know what I'm saying? Like just ask a question. What have you tried? Sorry. I have to get one in every episode.
Jordan:People know. People know. Check. But got it. The next one I have here is redirect a question to a partner partner processing.
Connie Hamilton:Yeah. So just redirecting questions to somebody different, not the teacher. And even asking like, what is the process or asking if they ask you the question, give it back to them as well. So if they say, What am I supposed to do here? If you've already done the What have you tried?
Connie Hamilton:Then, you know, it's just like, well, you know, what do you think? What could work? What are your options? Just again, getting them into that zone of where they're talking about what they can do, how they're going to process it. If you happen to just be there before the hand goes up, and you're just kind of roaming around and observing, even having students narrate how they're going to approach something, and then ask them if you get stuck, if you find that it's challenging, what are three things that you can do to help yourself?
Connie Hamilton:By asking them to do that before they're stuck, their mindset isn't, they're not concerned about their anxiety level of oh my gosh, I don't have this, I don't understand. Now their emotions are not interfering with their ability to think clearly about how can I help myself? So if you have them identify three things that they can do if they do get stuck, then when you come around, all you have to do is trigger that processing sequence of okay, so what were the three things that you were going to do if you got stuck? Now they don't have to create solutions or problem solve when their emotions are high, they have to do the lowest level of Bloom's taxonomy, which is recall. And all they have do is remember what they already pre problem solved from the get go.
Connie Hamilton:And so it gives you a trigger that doesn't really give them actual help around a solution. It just gives them help to restart their thinking.
Jordan:Gotcha. Cool. So redirecting the either back at them or having them kind of reach out to a partner or a friend, I guess, to kind of work through that. I got stop and jot before discussion.
Connie Hamilton:So this is more about when we're doing like a whole class discussion. And a teacher asks a question to the whole class. And now we're faced with the same five hands that come up all the time, and I'm deciding am I going to call on one of those five hands? Or am I going to cold call on somebody's voice that I haven't heard yet? Or somebody who looks like they're disengaged, and I want to catch them from a management perspective, which to me is a big no no.
Connie Hamilton:So instead of deciding what one person am I going to call on, have everybody stop write down, If I were to call on you, if I were to pull your popsicle stick, if you were to volunteer, how would you respond? So it can either be a written response with just a couple of notes, or it could be, Turn and share with your partner, If I ask you to respond to this question, how will you reply? Now instead of having one or two students respond to a class discussion, you have everybody in the class who is responding to a single question. So you just took your percentage of participation from 3% to, I will say there's a few kids that don't participate. So you take
Jordan:it to Right? 80
Connie Hamilton:So it's still drastically different, better than calling on one student at a time. If you have everybody do a stop and jot or everybody do a turn and talk, then you can roam around, look over shoulders, you see something interesting, you see a misconception, you see a unique strategy or perspective that you want to highlight. Now you can be purposeful with who you call on to share those things instead of just randomizing who you call on.
Jordan:Sure. Yeah. And I can see that getting kids to think, you know, maybe you're there was times certain subjects that I was scared to raise my hand. Like, I I may have known the answer, but I just I didn't feel like it.
Will:You weren't gonna catch me being wrong.
Jordan:Yeah. Or I was I wasn't 100% sure that I was right. But this way, like, it kinda gets everyone thinking a little bit and being able to compare to what the correct answer might be or what someone else got. Think, I really like that one. I think
Connie Hamilton:that's And if you're a student in my classroom, and I know that it's a confidence thing, like you have the answer, but you just don't want to be wrong, then I can just quickly nudge and give you like, I could just tap at your thing, give you a thumbs up and say, Hey, can I call on you to share? I love your answer. So now the risk is low. I'm at, Hey, raise your hand when I ask for this. So now I'm giving you a safe way to volunteer because I've already given you that affirmation.
Connie Hamilton:And now you can practice sharing your voice, your thinking with the entire class in a way that the risk is reduced.
Jordan:Yeah, that's great. Yeah. The last one I got here is let a wrong answer breathe before correcting it.
Connie Hamilton:Yeah, I feel like that just stands on its own right there. It's really kind of what we've been talking about this whole time. So allowing students to make those mistakes, and then process discovering that it was a mistake. So does this seem right? Does that make sense?
Connie Hamilton:Is this reasonable? Working through the answer. So and it's not just I got to the bottom of the page, and I'm done, and I'm not going to think about it again, I'm going on to the next one. But once you get down to that, alright, this seems like the end is a reasonable does this make sense? If it doesn't, then we just kind of go, So now what?
Connie Hamilton:Now what do we do? This doesn't make sense. And now I'm in it with you like, Yeah, this doesn't make sense. So what are we going to do? So allowing that also, number one, this you want the students to be able to notice the mistake, and then to be able to, to problem solve through it.
Connie Hamilton:If we intervene as soon as the mistake happens, we can process way faster than they can. And so we believe, Oh, they didn't notice this, they're going to keep going down this misconception. And we don't give them or us the joy of that scratch your head sort of moment of wait, this doesn't make sense. I need to go back and figure this out. When you see a student reach that point, it's such a celebratory moment.
Connie Hamilton:You feel so good about what you've done and about the student. And we rob everybody of that when we interject. Just let it breathe. Let's see if they notice it, see if their partner notices it, see if somebody else can say that doesn't seem right. Let's look at it again.
Connie Hamilton:And then allow them to look at it again. Now we have what's called a mastery moment, where they approached something that was challenging, they had success with it. And that boosts their esteem and their confidence just a little bit so that the next time they're faced with a similar scenario, they now have a history of knowing what it feels like to be like, yep, I did this before. And by golly, I can do it again.
Jordan:Yeah, I really really like that. But I can see where it can be really challenging for some educators. Mhmm. But like I mean,
Will:there's some people.
Jordan:Like, I
Will:I might say a word wrong slightly and people will jump on you. No. That's not how you say that. You know, you say it like this or whatever. So I feel like for people in general, it might just be hard.
Jordan:Yeah. But letting it breathe, I've you know, when working with my daughter on homework or things like that, and she doesn't and she's like, is this right? Sometimes I just sit there for a minute. But she can tell right off the bat. She's like, he's not responding.
Jordan:Something must not be right. Let me go look at it again. And she goes right back and she's looking. Sometimes she can't find the mistake. But
Connie Hamilton:Yeah. So if that happens, and the next time she does it, and it's right, respond the exact same way. That she's not. Yeah, so she's not queuing into your like,
Jordan:are
Connie Hamilton:you sure? One of the cues that your answer is wrong is when a teacher says, Are you sure about that? That's gold. Right? And so to flip that, if the answer is right, then we come with, Are you sure about Sometimes students will go back in because they believe the teacher knows more than they do.
Connie Hamilton:And that's telling. And then sometimes a student looks at you like, Yes, I am sure. Why are you not sure you crazy woman? Like, and so that also helps to build that efficacy so that they're not dependent on us all the time for the affirmation every single time that they face something that's hard, we want them to have the experience of this was hard, I worked through it, and I can do it again and again and again and again.
Will:I think I've had a that code you were talking about code for that that's potentially wrong. I remember in high school, our I forgot what class it was. I think it was history or something. We were taking a test. And the teacher was walking by the desks.
Will:And I won't say who they stopped at. It was my desk. They looked down at the sheet and they go, hey, make sure everybody's paid attention to question six. It might be confusing. You have to point out, you might have that wrong and maybe someone else does too.
Will:You know, kinda highlighting out there, you know, make sure you read carefully, everybody. That's almost worse
Connie Hamilton:when they say it to the whole class because then you're wondering like, is it me or is it not me?
Jordan:It the guy that they stopped at before or
Will:Yeah. Maybe we were I was the second or third they caught and we're like, oh, okay. Maybe, hey, here's a code for everybody revisit. Everybody revisit.
Jordan:So just to recap are kinda like the strategies and things that we've talked about is ask what you've tried, putting it in getting them to explain to you what it is that they've already done, Redirecting the question either kinda back to them or to a partner to try and, again, put it on them to do that exploring and figuring out what the answer might be. Stop and jot. So in like a group conversation, if you've asked a question to the whole class, having people write it down or turn to a neighbor and and talk about to get that, one, gives everyone an opportunity to kinda see what they know, or and two, gets everyone kinda participating and and involved. And then let the wrong answer breathe before correcting it. That giving that pause.
Jordan:And as we just discussed, even if they get the right answer, letting it breathe for a minute so that you don't show all your cards right there off the bat and keep them on their toes. I think those are four great little strategies to to to help with. When those students are in in the challenge, you know that they they have the tools or you've provided the tools for them to get the answer, ways to kinda enforce that and ways to help them continually develop that skill of problem solving problem solving and not just your subject, but gives them the tools to problem solve no matter what subject they're in. I think those are just wonderful.
Connie Hamilton:Thanks. Yeah. I think like the teachers are, we want to be helpful. And there are time constraints, like there are always reasons to jump in and support. Pausing for a moment, as students are working and you're roaming around and you know, you're just going to kind of check-in on students, just getting into the mindset to say, am I coaching and supporting and helping for this one assignment?
Connie Hamilton:Or am I coaching and helping students to get into the thinking process? And just that little mindful awareness before you start roaming around the classroom will make your questions, your coaching, in your exchanges with students, it will make them more focused on whatever your actual goal is. So I mean, sometimes you want them to just get through this because lesson. And tomorrow is the one that really matters. And we just need to do this foundation thing.
Connie Hamilton:And so we're going to get through this so we can slow down tomorrow. But there are other times when it's just more important for students to work through the thinking and persevere through that.
Jordan:Yeah. Absolutely. Connie, I think that is a wonderful statement to kind of wrap up our episode here with you. I I agree with all of it. I think it's all all great.
Jordan:I know I'm I've learned some stuff today to help with my daughter and, and my son. He's starting kindergarten now. So Congrats. He's starting to do some of that stuff too, so to help them along. But, Connie, thank you so much for spending this time with us and encouraging and continuing to be an educator just more with the educators themselves.
Jordan:So thank you so much for joining us today, Connie.
Connie Hamilton:Well, thank you. It's been great. It's been super fun. And I loved hearing about all of your stories of your own high school experiences. They're very similar to everyone else's, I'm sure.
Jordan:Yeah. We try and be relatable. You know, we're just average people with average stories.
Connie Hamilton:No. I don't know. I don't think you're average at all.
Jordan:Oh, thanks, Connie. Really building me up there. Yeah. But I thought she was
Will:gonna let it breathe. But Oh, yeah. But,
Jordan:Connie, thank you for joining us. Listeners, I as always, I'm very hopeful that you've learned something that you can use in your classroom. That's our goal on this podcast is to help give you things that you can start using in your classroom right away to help your students grow and learn and to build skills so that when they graduate, you're confident that they are gonna be successful and just wonderful human beings. So listeners, thank you for joining us on this episode. Will, thanks
Will:for being here. Of course, dude. I love being a part of this.
Jordan:Yeah. So anyway, you guys keep on keeping on, and we'll see you on the next episode.